Thoughts Please...Played Well?

Lambert180

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Janner	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.57
summers19	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£2.77
JGIBBRFC	Big blind		£0.04	£0.10	£5.16
	Your hole cards	J 10
JGIBBRFC	Raise		£0.12	£0.22	£5.04
Lambert180	Call		£0.16	£0.38	£6.39
Janner	Fold
summers19	Fold
Flop
		5 8 K
JGIBBRFC	Check
Lambert180	Check
Turn
		K
JGIBBRFC	Bet		£0.30	£0.68	£4.74
Lambert180	Raise		£0.60	£1.28	£5.79
JGIBBRFC	Call		£0.30	£1.58	£4.44
River
		J
JGIBBRFC	Check
Lambert180	Bet		£1.60	£3.18	£4.19
JGIBBRFC	Raise		£3.84	£7.02	£0.60
Lambert180	Call		£2.24	£9.26	£1.95
JGIBBRFC	Show	K K
Lambert180	Muck	J 10
JGIBBRFC	Win	Four Kings	£8.58		£9.18

Lambert180

All my profit for the session went down the toilet in this one hand... stopped shortly after this and managed to be 19p up.

Wiiiiiiiii

debdobs_67

Wee bit ul m8 but when that raise comes in on the river what do ya think ure still beatin ?

debdobs_67

Do you have notes on him ? he plays nl10 and nl20 with me and tbh i aint makin this call

PiAnOpLaYa

i think the problem starts when your calling pre.

Flush's always look scary on a paired bored aswell +  your telling the villain you have a flush with the min raise on the turn

waller02

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well?:

i think the problem starts when your calling pre. Flush's always look scary on a paired bored aswell +  your telling the villain you have a flush with the min raise on the turn
Posted by PiAnOpLaYa

+1, i'm folding this pre, the call on the river isn't that bad but the way the hand has played it would be hard not to put the villain on at least a fh....i have played that villain a bit and he seems a pretty solid player, def one of the better players at that level

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well?:

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well? : +1, i'm folding this pre, the call on the river isn't that bad but the way the hand has played it would be hard not to put the villain on at least a fh....i have played that villain a bit and he seems a pretty solid player, def one of the better players at that level
Posted by waller02

He is xx

PiAnOpLaYa

Do you still call with J10 off suit?

Dudeskin8

Snap fold pre for me, you know this level now mate and you also know you can get paid SO easy with better hands that there's no need to play this one. If it was a stupid minraise them maybe you can justify call IP but I'd still fold lolz.

As played why did you minraise on turn, that is pretty bizarre tbh, when you hit flush make a big raise that charges him if he has has FH outs minraise looks super strong and also gives him lovely odds which he took and out drew you. Utterly astonished he checked quads to you on river lol I would bet less than this on river ~£1 and fold to raise. Overall though if you have reads this guy is in ANYWAY good pre if even easier fold.

offshoot

People saying fold pre are mental. You should definitely bet the flop though, raise the turn bigger and jam river.

rancid

tight to fold pre but it's right at NL4

as played

bet flop IP, OOP just c/c

turn get it in, raise a lot more

cooler in the end but you have to think to yourself what is he raising river with that I am beating

Your only beating a smaller flush or trips. Would he really raise river with possible flush and FH on board, holding trips.

Bet for value, when raised then you have to think again m8'ty

I love the check on the river, this should be a sign to check back or b/f because a bluff is just not in there range.

YOUNG_GUN

Fold pre here, maybe bit tight but i think its just about right (not being results orientated)

there is no way you can put him on quads or FH so have to stack of post flop UL

grantorino

wtf should we fold pre? Explain please 4NLers

I prob bet flop v a good villain (had you reads lambert)

raise turn bigger

fold to river raise, unless you are against complete fish

also note that he checked top set on a wet board (unusual if hes a reg), and checked the nuts to you on river after calling a turn raise (which I think is good, but not many do it at low levels)

unknown_username

I do sometimes fold pre this hand in position but only with reads on villain. Even though its NL4, J,10 suited in position is still worth the call in my opinion.

Pre is ok. Bet flop definitely, gives you two chances to win the hand.

Dont like the min raise on the turn, lets make it at least 90p with a viw to getting it in.

I am happy to push the lot in on the river if played as i said above.

As played, river is difficult. I might just check back as you played it but i am not really happy about it, if not i am probably bet folding it. He obviously has a good idea what you have now and he is willing to push it further, your beat quite alot of the time.

debdobs_67

Gettin interesting this thread , there is sweet fa wrong with playin the J10 sooted pre it can be a very profitable hand

Dudeskin8

If we call pre with J10s are we doing same with 89s ,78s ,56s ,45s, where does it stop? I just prefer making the game simple and if you call with J10 here and flop comes J52r and he bets into you you're gonna call and then turn comes a blank 3 etc and he bets again are you good enough to fold to 2nd barrel or are you gonna call all the way down with a marginal hand, maybe this is right against GOOD players who can bluff 3 streets but most will have you outkicked.

If it's folded to me however I will certainly raise as I have some control then and can cbet and win most times even if miss.

waller02

i'm saying fold pre because at nl4 the easiest way to win is to wait for bigger hands and play them stongly, ppl at that level will easily pay you off, imo there is no need to get involved with marginal hands pre flop

say the flop comes down j high, can you be sure ur ahead? and even if you are ppl dont fold easily at level and the hand just becomes harder to play with the potential of losing a big pot......if i'm calling pre with that hand i'm purely looking for flush/straight......not worth playing imo....at that level

Lambert180

Well yes I wasn't playing to hit top pair, I was playing to hit the straight or flush and I did. Just he happened to hit quad kings and check the river! On reflection, I can see the min-raise serves no purpose really and was a bad move.

Thank you YG, there is no way I can put him on FH or quads when he checks river. When he re-raises me on the river, I'm very worried to say the least but baffled about how he's played it but I can't fld for less than 1/3 of the pot, or at least I didn't think I could fold... mainly the reason I put it up here.

No Dude, playing JTs does not mean we start playing 45s, clearly all suited connectors are not the same. JT draws to the nut straight, a flush that's very rarely gonna be beaten, and is pretty well disguised. Plus I know it's not massively deep, but he was about 130BBs deep, and I had him covered, so I can play more drawing hands with the increased implied odds.

Oh and no I didn't have any notes on him, obviously if I knew he was a reg, then i'm almost 100% beaten here but readless at this level, I think I'll win this at least the 1in3 times I need to make it a profitable call. Plenty of people at this level wouldn't think twice about doing that with AK, KQ, in fact Kx. I've seen junk people at this level re-raise rivers with worse than trips!

grantorino

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well?:

i'm saying fold pre because at nl4 the easiest way to win is to wait for bigger hands and play them stongly, ppl at that level will easily pay you off, imo there is no need to get involved with marginal hands pre flop say the flop comes down j high, can you be sure ur ahead? and even if you are ppl dont fold easily at level and the hand just becomes harder to play with the potential of losing a big pot......if i'm calling pre with that hand i'm purely looking for flush/straight......not worth playing imo....at that level
Posted by waller02

1. Fine, but if playing other hands is profitable you should do it

2. obv you cant be sure you are ahead, but this applies to some extent to all hands. If it comes J hi you will often be ahead. I'm assuming op can play postflop poker when I say he can call with JTs not that he stacks everytime he flops a pair. Also if we are ahead we dont want them to fold

waller02

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well?:

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well? : 1. Fine, but if playing other hands is profitable you should do it 2. obv you cant be sure you are ahead, but this applies to some extent to all hands. If it comes J hi you will often be ahead. I'm assuming op can play postflop poker when I say he can call with JTs not that he stacks everytime he flops a pair. Also if we are ahead we dont want them to fold
Posted by grantorino

yeah i get ur point and i know lambert is good enough not to stack off with a pair.....all i'm saying is that playing hands like this at nl4 is soo much harder due to the fact that ppl will call u off with anything which makes it harder to gauge where you are in the hand for example, a jack high flop, if they bet and you raise 90% of the players will still call with kq etc......for this reason i fold and wait for a better hand, sure it's tight but that is the best way to play at that level

grantorino

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well?:

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well? : yeah i get ur point and i know lambert is good enough not to stack off with a pair.....all i'm saying is that playing hands like this at nl4 is soo much harder due to the fact that ppl will call u off with anything which makes it harder to gauge where you are in the hand for example, a jack high flop, if they bet and you raise 90% of the players will still call with kq etc......for this reason i fold and wait for a better hand, sure it's tight but that is the best way to play at that level
Posted by waller02

If this is true, its a reason to call pre not to fold pre

waller02

i'm not putting my point across very well lol

best way to see what i'm trying to say is play a nl4 table calling every raise with j10 suited and play another table folding j10 suited and only playing better hands.....i'm confident which table would be more profitable

at the end of the day we all play differently and this is just my personal opinion

Lambert180

Lol I know what you mean Waller, and at these levels it is more profitable to only play premium hands but what Grantorino was saying was that if you get top pair with JT and people are calling bets with Khigh then this is great for you, cos that's how you make money.

rancid

Gran,

 I think if your giving advice to players starting out at NL4 then you should say fold this kinda hand pre.
Lets face it all new comers starting at NL4 will not know how to play wining post flop poker.
If you are a Reg then you should be able to play post flop so really you don't need the advice regarding starting ranges to play ABC winning poker, so therefore disregard the fold pre line )



 

Lambert180

Yeah but you know I aint a noob so base your advice on what you know about me, even if it is little. I'm a winning cash player in the few months I've been playing micro stakes, just wanted some thoughts on the post flop play here.

rancid

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well?:

Yeah but you know I aint a noob so base your advice on what you know about me, even if it is little. I'm a winning cash player in the few months I've been playing micro stakes, just wanted some thoughts on the post flop play here.
Posted by Lambert180

Take from the posts what relate to you, my posts are not biased towards the OP
I think all hands are examples that all readers can learn from

waller02

i wish i'd never said fold pre!!!! lol but i still would tho.....it works for me

debdobs_67

I think far tooo many players are becoming nits ) defo not me tho )

grantorino

Just to take up some of the things have been said:

Waller, I never said I am always calling a raise with JTs. I call in this situation though. I would prefer have reads, not so much to decide whether I call or fold, but to decide how I play postflop

Rancid, OP asked for advice so my advice is aimed at him. As for a newbie I havent thought about it much I would prob tell them to fold, but thats because I dont trust .them not to make mistakes, not because folding is best. I see no reason why posts should be particularly geared towards complete newbies rather than players who understand basics, esp as most posting here do.

There are arguments for folding this pre. The argument that goes "oh but its easier make money with AA" is not one of them. If its profitable play the hand, make more money. If not fold. I call here because we are  slightly deep, on the btn and theres a decent chance blinds will come along. These along with the fact that 4NL players betsize badly, cant fold a pair and are often passive give us good implied odds here. I'm never going broke with one pair here without a good read. I prob fold oop readless as it reduces our implied odds significantly especially if we think we cant semibluff, which we often cant at 4NL. There are certain villain types I wouldnt flat against but I doubt there are many at 4NL.

As for the difference between JTs and lower scs, we flop better pairs, straights and flushes. There is more chance we are dominated though and that cards that make draws for us make villain pair or better and vice versa.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well?:

Just to take up some of the things have been said: Waller, I never said I am always calling a raise with JTs. I call in this situation though. I would prefer have reads, not so much to decide whether I call or fold, but to decide how I play postflop Rancid, OP asked for advice so my advice is aimed at him. As for a newbie I havent thought about it much I would prob tell them to fold, but thats because I dont trust .them not to make mistakes, not because folding is best. I see no reason why posts should be particularly geared towards complete newbies rather than players who understand basics, esp as most posting here do. There are arguments for folding this pre. The argument that goes "oh but its easier make money with AA" is not one of them. If its profitable play the hand, make more money. If not fold. I call here because we are  slightly deep, on the btn and theres a decent chance blinds will come along. These along with the fact that 4NL players betsize badly, cant fold a pair and are often passive give us good implied odds here. I'm never going broke with one pair here without a good read. I prob fold oop readless as it reduces our implied odds significantly especially if we think we cant semibluff, which we often cant at 4NL. There are certain villain types I wouldnt flat against but I doubt there are many at 4NL. As for the difference between JTs and lower scs, we flop better pairs, straights and flushes. There is more chance we are dominated though and that cards that make draws for us make villain pair or better and vice versa.
Posted by grantorino

+1 to all of this

waller02

In Response to Re: Thoughts Please...Played Well?:

Just to take up some of the things have been said: Waller, I never said I am always calling a raise with JTs. I call in this situation though. I would prefer have reads, not so much to decide whether I call or fold, but to decide how I play postflop Rancid, OP asked for advice so my advice is aimed at him. As for a newbie I havent thought about it much I would prob tell them to fold, but thats because I dont trust .them not to make mistakes, not because folding is best. I see no reason why posts should be particularly geared towards complete newbies rather than players who understand basics, esp as most posting here do. There are arguments for folding this pre. The argument that goes "oh but its easier make money with AA" is not one of them. If its profitable play the hand, make more money. If not fold. I call here because we are  slightly deep, on the btn and theres a decent chance blinds will come along. These along with the fact that 4NL players betsize badly, cant fold a pair and are often passive give us good implied odds here. I'm never going broke with one pair here without a good read. I prob fold oop readless as it reduces our implied odds significantly especially if we think we cant semibluff, which we often cant at 4NL. There are certain villain types I wouldnt flat against but I doubt there are many at 4NL. As for the difference between JTs and lower scs, we flop better pairs, straights and flushes. There is more chance we are dominated though and that cards that make draws for us make villain pair or better and vice versa.
Posted by grantorino

you always give great advice on here, fair play....but when i said it's more profitable to play better hands i obv didnt mean ONLY PLAY aa and kk etc... however i do think it is more profitable to play with a tighter range than j10 at nl4....just my opinion, you disagree, which is fine..let's move on lol