AJ nl4 on A high flop

harding10

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
fewkes05	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.44
qauagmire	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£0.95
	Your hole cards	A J
harding10	Raise		£0.20	£0.26	£4.09
xxxx	Call		£0.20	£0.46	£3.86
cod	Fold
spark641	Fold
fewkes05	Fold
qauagmire	Fold
Flop
		6 6 A
harding10	Bet		£0.35	£0.81	£3.74
xxxx	Raise		£0.70	£1.51	£3.16
harding10	Raise		£1.75	£3.26	£1.99
xxxx	All-in		£3.16	£6.42	£0.00
harding10	????

Unknown villain. Against an unknown at NL4 should I be calling this?

big_mick12

you have to call after 3b the flop. Just call is raise you keep in all his bluffs. by 3 betting you only get it in vs his value hands which prob have you beat.

harding10

In Response to Re: AJ nl4 on A high flop:

you have to call after 3b the flop. Just call is raise you keep in all his bluffs. by 3 betting you only get it in vs his value hands which prob have you beat.
Posted by big_mick12

If I call what do I do down the streets, because check calling still leaves it all in on the river, there's very little that will definately improve my situation in the hand. I'm either ahead of his range or behind so if I'm going to fold it needs to be on the flop. 

I probably need to either fold or shove on his re-raise. So is it profitable long term to get it in with AJ in this situation?

If I were playing the villains hand I'd only be behind to AQ or 66 flatting pre, and I wouldn't be shoving with quads and risking the other player folding. But this is the wonderful world of nl4.

Batkin88

shoving with quads in this situation would be a quality play.
No i dont think you should be getting it all in here usually but at nl4 he could have a lower pair e.g KKQQJJ or a flush draw so i think your ahead alot of the time so yeah after re raise just set him in

grantorino

3b/f TPGK here is really bad. Once you 3bet you have to get it in, unless you have some cast iron read he flats loads of worse hands and only raises better. If you are not happy getting it in, flat and play thru the streets, or fold if you think it means he always has AK or better

Dudeskin8

I'd find it hard to fold on this flop personlly.

Yes he can have bigger ace but that's just two hands, there are SO many more aces he could be overvalueing on a dry board that he thinks is good for him. I also can't put a 6 in his range after calling a 5x raise maybe I should be able to but I cant lol. Possible strongly played flush draw but either way I get it in here as players at this level can't fold ANY ace preflop.

big_mick12

depending on board run out bet size and player tendancies id be calling his min raise and playing down the streets. Prob not folding but by raising you fold out his bluffs do you see?

Lambert180

I'm shocked you've said this Dude cos I know you're really tight. I think when he 3bets there he basically gets rid of any chance of the villian bluffing, and makes it so that he's virtually only gonna get called/4bet by something that's beating him. I know alot of people at 4NL are mostly rubbish but do you really think they 4bet with A4 here?

rancid

you can't fold now you have 3 bet flop
Looks like he is happy to get it in now so it's either 6, A or FD
AJ I finks is ace rag tbh, ditch it - fold it - don't lose yoru money on it )
This is very player dependant, your OPPO's either stacks(Ax) light or has you drawing very thin.
Doesn't look like he is raising you on the flop with a FD - , smells like a dirty 6 - its' NL4 so do you have him noted as a loose goose ::S

Notes for the win

angie6108

y are u 3 betting if u are asking teh question to call a 4 bet raise surely taht was your plan if not why 3 bet in the first place i would of called hes raise on the flop and if a no spade comes down bet big then he could have flush draw 

Dudeskin8

In Response to ...:

I'm shocked you've said this Dude cos I know you're really tight. I think when he 3bets there he basically gets rid of any chance of the villian bluffing, and makes it so that he's virtually only gonna get called/4bet by something that's beating him. I know alot of people at 4NL are mostly rubbish but do you really think they 4bet with A4 here?
Posted by Lambert180

I am tight but have also seen 'new' players often make this minraise play with TPWK like K8 on KJ3 board etc, best line is probably just check/call down though but if he does 3bet he has to call 4bet.

jugglegeek

In my experience it's about 50:50 that your opponent has a six or an ace. Very few at NL4 would min-raise with a flush draw. If he has a six then you are drawing to two remaining aces or running jacks (5%) if he has the ace then you have to worry about AQ and AK but he could just as easily have A2.

Therefore I think that you are behind more often than you are infront and you should fold. At higher stakes you might have fold equity against an ace or the flush draw if you have a good image and a tight opponent but at NL4 you have zero fold equity here - This hand will reach showdown unless you fold.

NL4 is full of tough decisions like this where you know that you are going to end up putting your stack in on a marginal situation. However there are plenty more situations where you have the nuts and people are calling your bets with bottom pair or draws, or the times when you have ace or kings and you get it all in pre against KTo or A6s.

At NL4 take the easy money when you know it's easy and sigh fold when you are not sure. When you are playing high stakes against good players who will fold when you have the nuts and bet 3/4 of the pot then you become a profitable player based on your ability to make stella reads in spots like this. At NL4 you can be a profitable player by avoiding spots like this.

Keep on grinding

harding10

In Response to Re: AJ nl4 on A high flop:

In my experience it's about 50:50 that your opponent has a six or an ace. Very few at NL4 would min-raise with a flush draw. If he has a six then you are drawing to two remaining aces or running jacks (5%) if he has the ace then you have to worry about AQ and AK but he could just as easily have A2. Therefore I think that you are behind more often than you are infront and you should fold. At higher stakes you might have fold equity against an ace or the flush draw if you have a good image and a tight opponent but at NL4 you have zero fold equity here - This hand will reach showdown unless you fold. NL4 is full of tough decisions like this where you know that you are going to end up putting your stack in on a marginal situation. However there are plenty more situations where you have the nuts and people are calling your bets with bottom pair or draws, or the times when you have ace or kings and you get it all in pre against KTo or A6s. At NL4 take the easy money when you know it's easy and sigh fold when you are not sure. When you are playing high stakes against good players who will fold when you have the nuts and bet 3/4 of the pot then you become a profitable player based on your ability to make stella reads in spots like this. At NL4 you can be a profitable player by avoiding spots like this. Keep on grinding
Posted by jugglegeek

It's a learning curve and even on a tight range it's the lower end of the range that's causing me grief.

It seem to be 2 steps forwards, 1 step back. I'm beating nl4 at the moment, but only slowly.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: AJ nl4 on A high flop:

In my experience it's about 50:50 that your opponent has a six or an ace. Very few at NL4 would min-raise with a flush draw. If he has a six then you are drawing to two remaining aces or running jacks (5%) if he has the ace then you have to worry about AQ and AK but he could just as easily have A2. Therefore I think that you are behind more often than you are infront and you should fold. At higher stakes you might have fold equity against an ace or the flush draw if you have a good image and a tight opponent but at NL4 you have zero fold equity here - This hand will reach showdown unless you fold. NL4 is full of tough decisions like this where you know that you are going to end up putting your stack in on a marginal situation. However there are plenty more situations where you have the nuts and people are calling your bets with bottom pair or draws, or the times when you have ace or kings and you get it all in pre against KTo or A6s. At NL4 take the easy money when you know it's easy and sigh fold when you are not sure. When you are playing high stakes against good players who will fold when you have the nuts and bet 3/4 of the pot then you become a profitable player based on your ability to make stella reads in spots like this. At NL4 you can be a profitable player by avoiding spots like this. Keep on grinding
Posted by jugglegeek

+1

Put wonderfully. Although I know Dude knows all this already.

Dudeskin8

Ok very different situation but just wanted to show how players can overvalue their marginal Ax's, also I appreciate he might be trying to turn his hand into a bluff but I think he thinks he is good.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
x	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£7.94
squeebz11	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£4.67
	Your hole cards	A J
silentbob	Fold
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£16.98
goody2sh29	Fold
x	Call		£0.25	£0.70	£7.69
squeebz11	Fold
Flop
		A 6 3
x	Bet		£0.10	£0.80	£7.59
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.60	£1.40	£16.38
x	Call		£0.50	£1.90	£7.09
Turn
		J
x	Check
Dudeskin8	Bet		£1.43	£3.33	£14.95
x	Call		£1.43	£4.76	£5.66
River
		3
x	All-in		£5.66	£10.42	£0.00
Dudeskin8	Raise		£11.32	£21.74	£3.63
Dudeskin8	Unmatched bet		£5.66	£16.08	£9.29
x	Show	A 2
Dudeskin8	Show	A J
Dudeskin8	Win	Two Pairs, Aces and Jacks	£14.87		£24.16

offshoot

In Response to AJ nl4 on A high flop:

Player Action Cards Amount Pot Balance fewkes05 Small blind   £0.02 £0.02 £3.44 qauagmire Big blind   £0.04 £0.06 £0.95   Your hole cards A J       harding10 Raise   £0.20 £0.26 £4.09 xxxx  Call   £0.20 £0.46 £3.86 cod Fold         spark641 Fold         fewkes05 Fold         qauagmire Fold         Flop     6 6 A       harding10 Bet   £0.35 £0.81 £3.74 xxxx Raise   £0.70 £1.51 £3.16 harding10 Raise   £1.75 £3.26 £1.99 xxxx  All-in   £3.16 £6.42 £0.00 harding10 ????  Unknown villain. Against an unknown at NL4 should I be calling this?
Posted by harding10

if youre gonna fold to his shove why not just fold to his raise on the flop? you basically put in more money just to find yourself in the same position. If you think its possible he doesnt have a 6 then just call the raise on the flop. Dont be afraid to play the turn and the river. If they have a weak hand they will probably slow down.

grantorino

In Response to Re: AJ nl4 on A high flop:

In my experience it's about 50:50 that your opponent has a six or an ace. Very few at NL4 would min-raise with a flush draw. If he has a six then you are drawing to two remaining aces or running jacks (5%) if he has the ace then you have to worry about AQ and AK but he could just as easily have A2. Therefore I think that you are behind more often than you are infront and you should fold. At higher stakes you might have fold equity against an ace or the flush draw if you have a good image and a tight opponent but at NL4 you have zero fold equity here - This hand will reach showdown unless you fold. NL4 is full of tough decisions like this where you know that you are going to end up putting your stack in on a marginal situation. However there are plenty more situations where you have the nuts and people are calling your bets with bottom pair or draws, or the times when you have ace or kings and you get it all in pre against KTo or A6s. At NL4 take the easy money when you know it's easy and sigh fold when you are not sure. When you are playing high stakes against good players who will fold when you have the nuts and bet 3/4 of the pot then you become a profitable player based on your ability to make stella reads in spots like this. At NL4 you can be a profitable player by avoiding spots like this. Keep on grinding
Posted by jugglegeek

Why do you think we are behind when he minraises?  Pre he surelay has more Ax than 6x in his range and prob 3bets AA,AK. On flop some proportion of his range has to be flushdraws and air, so unless he raises 6x much more often than Ax I doubt we are behind that often

Also what are you talking about fold equity for? Do you really think anyone raise/folds AQ or better? Surely if we raise here its for value and we dont want worse to fold

harding10

In Response to Re: AJ nl4 on A high flop:

In Response to AJ nl4 on A high flop : if youre gonna fold to his shove why not just fold to his raise on the flop? you basically put in more money just to find yourself in the same position. If you think its possible he doesnt have a 6 then just call the raise on the flop. Dont be afraid to play the turn and the river. If they have a weak hand they will probably slow down.
Posted by offshoot

Not through being afraid, but a mixture of switching from tournament & the 5xbb opening raise is causing me some problems. If I ask too much in the way of questions on the flop and with the bigger opening raise  at nl4 is getting me pot stuck too easily. Got to remember I'm 100bb deep not 20.

The extra volume of cash is showing up leaks that have almost certainly always been there. Explains why I've consistantly made small profits at lower stakes but never  been able to kick on up through from there.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: AJ nl4 on A high flop:

In Response to Re: AJ nl4 on A high flop : Not through being afraid, but a mixture of switching from tournament & the 5xbb opening raise is causing me some problems. If I ask too much in the way of questions on the flop and with the bigger opening raise  at nl4 is getting me pot stuck too easily. Got to remember I'm 100bb deep not 20. The extra volume of cash is showing up leaks that have almost certainly always been there. Explains why I've consistantly made small profits at lower stakes but never  been able to kick on up through from there.
Posted by harding10

You don't ask questions at 4NL because you won't get comprehendable answers. You bet for value when you've got a strong hand... forget asking questions. When you're against a guy who'll call a bet with AKhigh, or TPTK or TP no kicker, or 2pr, or 4 to a flush, or a gutshot and so on, what do you learn by betting? Forget it, just bet you're more than likely ahead.