20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion

YOUNG_GUN

Ok there are a few talking points here, firstly i have played the villain a few times in the past and he is very aggro will often 3 barrell bluffs vs me so is capable of bluffing alot.

Yesterday he was ultra aggro in everypot generally playing alot of hands, prior to this hand had a couple of showdowns 1 where he hit the river but i checked back for a small pot and a similar one where my A high was good.

Although my hand is smashing his range on the button im not really over confident of 3b preflop oop, mainly i think it will inflate the pot and wanted to re-evaluate.

On the flop my plan is to check-raise as he will bet 99% of the time here, once he bets i figure im ahead only really hands i put him on is draws or complete air,so i aim to get it in on the flop.

I am aware i am in ahead here but have had small discussions on twitter and they wanted me to post so we can talk properly here.

YOUNG_GUN	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£23.06
tirurirus	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£33.96
	Your hole cards	J A
sikas	Fold
snapper725	Fold
x	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£34.52
YOUNG_GUN	Call		£0.50	£1.40	£22.56
tirurirus	Fold
Flop
		A 8 7
YOUNG_GUN	Check
x	Bet		£1.00	£2.40	£33.52
YOUNG_GUN	Raise		£2.80	£5.20	£19.76
x	Raise		£5.60	£10.80	£27.92
YOUNG_GUN	All-in		£19.76	£30.56	£0.00
x	Call		£15.96	£46.52	£11.96
YOUNG_GUN	Show	J A
x	Show	J 5
Turn
		2
River
		A
x	Win	Flush to the Ace	£44.72		£56.68

gav2k9

In Response to 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion:

Ok there are a few talking points here, firstly i have played the villain a few times in the past and he is very aggro will often 3 barrell bluffs vs me so is capable of bluffing alot. Yesterday he was ultra aggro in everypot generally playing alot of hands, prior to this hand had a couple of showdowns 1 where he hit the river but i checked back for a small pot and a similar one where my A high was good. Although my hand is smashing his range on the button im not really over confident of 3b preflop oop, mainly i think it will inflate the pot and wanted to re-evaluate. On the flop my plan is to check-raise as he will bet 99% of the time here, once he bets i figure im ahead only really hands i put him on is draws or complete air,so i aim to get it in on the flop. I am aware i am in ahead here but have had small discussions on twitter and they wanted me to post so we can talk properly here. YOUNG_GUN Small blind   £0.10 £0.10 £23.06 tirurirus Big blind   £0.20 £0.30 £33.96   Your hole cards J A       sikas Fold         snapper725 Fold         x Raise   £0.60 £0.90 £34.52 YOUNG_GUN Call   £0.50 £1.40 £22.56 tirurirus Fold         Flop     A 8 7       YOUNG_GUN Check         x Bet   £1.00 £2.40 £33.52 YOUNG_GUN Raise   £2.80 £5.20 £19.76 x  Raise   £5.60 £10.80 £27.92 YOUNG_GUN All-in   £19.76 £30.56 £0.00 x Call   £15.96 £46.52 £11.96 YOUNG_GUN Show J A       x Show J 5       Turn     2       River     A       x Win Flush to the Ace £44.72   £56.68
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

Most people never put flush draws down mate hardest thing to get ppl off, ya rice them off them and they still go along and hit it

pryce6

3b pre, don't fold if he 4bs, don't fold when you flop top pair. ez.

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion:

3b pre, don't fold if he 4bs, don't fold when you flop top pair. ez.
Posted by pryce6

haha cheers mate you do make it sound to easy

Boonicon

Just get it in as 60% and accept that I am going to win most of the time.

In reality I was opening every single hand, 3 bet me and I might get scared.

offshoot

What is the problem with the hand? i think you played it fine and everything just about went according to plan.

YOUNG_GUN

DOHHHHHHH23 JJ

@johnnybev1987 Overplayed that AJ v Boonicon.......what were u expecting him to show up with?

i responded air or flush draw but then both JJ and Pryce said i played it bad and as they are alot better at cash then me and dohhhh said to post as it would be a good hand for the clinic

LOL_RAISE

nh

rancid

If he been running over the table then AJ is fine to fire back with, 3 bet pre - flop plays itself

pryce6

The way I read it on twitter wasn't as played fwiw. I thought you c/c flop and then c/r allin turn.

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion:

The way I read it on twitter wasn't as played fwiw. I thought you c/c flop and then c/r allin turn.
Posted by pryce6

i assumed you had read as i posted it in BBV lol

Was only brief wat i put on twitter becoz the amount of letters you can put

angie6108

your playing a j on that flop as if its the nute raising he bet big and then when he reraises your 3 bet he could easily have a set here or a higher ace in my view but do u really wanna get it all in here when just favourite at best most of the time i think u are beat here 

pod1

nowt wrong there mate!

grantorino

dont really like 3betting pre, its going to suck when he flats and you miss flop, calling fine imo.

Postflop really depends how much you two have been going at it, I'd prob call intending to call down, I'm not sure you do very well against his range that gets it in on flop

DOHHHHHHH

" I put him on air or a flush draw"

If you put him on a range of air and flush draws, with no consideration for made hands such as AQ/AK/A7/A8/78.......then still c/raising is bad as it folds out all his air, which you believe to make up a large part of his range.

Your line works well against a draw. And nothing else. He doesn't have a draw very often here.

" i have played the villain a few times in the past and he is very aggro will often 3 barrell bluffs vs me so is capable of bluffing alot. "

He's capable of bluffing multiple streets, by c/raising here you remove that option. Which is bad. As we have a strong hand, and want him to put money in with a worse hand. 

"I'd prob call intending to call down, I'm not sure you do very well against his range that gets it in on flop"

I agree with this, and it's what I'd do ^^^^^^^

The_Don90

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion:

" I put him on air or a flush draw" If you put him on a range of air and flush draws, with no consideration for made hands such as AQ/AK/A7/A8/78.......then still c/raising is bad as it folds out all his air, which you believe to make up a large part of his range. Your line works well against a draw. And nothing else. He doesn't have a draw very often here. "  i have played the villain a few times in the past and he is very aggro will often 3 barrell bluffs vs me so is capable of bluffing alot. " He's capable of bluffing multiple streets, by c/raising here you remove that option. Which is bad. As we have a strong hand, and want him to put money in with a worse hand.  "I'd prob call intending to call down, I'm not sure you do very well against his range that gets it in on flop" I agr ee with this, and it's what I'd do ^^^^^^^
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

reading through i think you make some spot on points JJ.

WHOAMI196

DOHHH tbh i dont see any real issue with this hand,

if i was playing this hand i wouldn't care if i folded out the AIR hands its too draw heavy to play it cute, gets difficult to keep calling down when scare cards come, becomes a guessing game.

The way its played hes going to be good most of the time here tbf villain aint going to automatically put him on a good ace, but it is abit ballsy getting it in with aj sure.......... but because villain has such a wide range its ok, i personally think this is a good spot for the risk of one buy in.

Good instincts on the flop young gun..

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion:

dont really like 3betting pre, its going to suck when he flats and you miss flop, calling fine imo. Posted by grantorino

Sorry to troll but that is a lame reason not to three bet.....too passive thinking imo but i agree calling is fine

NColley

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion:

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion : Sorry to troll but that is a lame reason not to three bet.....too passive thinking imo but i agree calling is fine
Posted by WHOAMI196

AJ doesn't play too well post flop oop unless we hit big, so just flatting is ok w/ me. If you 3 bet and miss what you gonna do if your c bet gets raised or flatted? Pot soon becomes very inflated with us holding just a bluff catcher.

I think I'd rather keep pots smaller vs super aggros with vunerable holdings.

IDONKCALLU

getting it all in on this flop is just bad for me at best he has a flush draw to get all hes chips in the middle he could easily have a set here or a higher ace a q or ak but as u have history with the villain it changes all dynamics i suppose

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion:

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion : AJ doesn't play too well post flop oop unless we hit big, so just flatting is ok w/ me. If you 3 bet and miss what you gonna do if your c bet gets raised or flatted? Pot soon becomes very inflated with us holding just a bluff catcher. I think I'd rather keep pots smaller vs super aggros with vunerable holdings.
Posted by NColley

Aj sooted playes well heads up v button raise even if oop, you just got to know when to c-bet and when not to continue with the hand reading the board and balancing it with villains range etc..

Key feature of a c-bet is to take the dead money in the pot and this is usually the case from a button raiser
m8 and doing this with a hand with good equity is +EV, calling can be the worst option when oop in some cases esp when you cant control the pot size i.e calling each street by the river 100bb deep all the money would be in the middle.

Different horses for differen corses i guess, three bet would be the norm for me here but as i said calling is ok imo too.

grantorino

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion:

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion : Aj sooted playes well heads up v button raise even if oop, you just got to know when to c-bet and when not to continue with the hand reading the board and balancing it with villains range etc.. Key feature of a c-bet is to take the dead money in the pot and this is usually the case from a button raiser m8 and doing this with a hand with good equity is +EV, calling can be the worst option when oop in some cases esp when you cant control the pot size i.e calling each street by the river 100bb deep all the money would be in the middle. Different horses for differen corses i guess, three bet would be the norm for me here but as i said calling is ok imo too.
Posted by WHOAMI196

If we 3bet here its his calling/raising range that is important not his opening range

You made a point in a previous post that my reason for not 3betting was pretty lame and it prob was so I'll expand on it a bit.

Reasons I prefer flatting.
My hand plays well against villains opening range

I dont really want to inflate pot oop with a hand like this

I dont want to make villain fold.

If he 4bets I'm not delighted about getting it in, think we have to though cos no way I 3b/f AJ v this guy without better reads

When he calls his range is stronger than the one that opened, and Im not sure AJ is that far ahead of his calling range. He prob calls with worse hands, but prob not many that we dominate. This means there are some rio issues when we flop top pair. He is also unlikely to play fit or fold post, so we have to make difficult decisions very well postflop

I agree we cant pot control much oop anyway, and hand is tricky to play either way. I dont think 3betting is bad, it depends on dynamic and how much you 3bet generally. It may be better if you handread extremely well, but you certainly will end up sticking it in in pretty marginal spots

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion:

In Response to Re: 20NL vs good aggro reg who usually plays up to nl200, my line and discussion : If we 3bet here its his calling/raising range that is important not his opening range You made a point in a previous post that my reason for not 3betting was pretty lame and it prob was so I'll expand on it a bit. Reasons I prefer flatting. My hand plays well against villains opening range I dont really want to inflate pot oop with a hand like this I dont want to make villain fold. If he 4bets I'm not delighted about getting it in, think we have to though cos no way I 3b/f AJ v this guy without better reads When he calls his range is stronger than the one that opened, and Im not sure AJ is that far ahead of his calling range. He prob calls with worse hands, but prob not many that we dominate. This means there are some rio issues when we flop top pair. He is also unlikely to play fit or fold post, so we have to make difficult decisions very well postflop I agree we cant pot control much oop anyway, and hand is tricky to play either way. I dont think 3betting is bad, it depends on dynamic and how much you 3bet generally. It may be better if you handread extremely well, but you certainly will end up sticking it in in pretty marginal spots
Posted by grantorino

Mr Grantorino your logic is sound and would expect you to be a good player(although dont know where or how high stakes you play) Problem we have with each other is that we look at the game completely different way, we both may be profitable players but still play the game different.

I like three betting in general, its a great tool to have in your arsenal and shouldn't really be worried about inflating the pot as it rarely plays out to the turn and river.......you see problems i dont e.g if i three bet there....

...most of the time i pick up the dead money in the pot and dont mind folds AJ is not the most profitable hand from the SB as is the case for most hands tbf despite this particular hand...

...if villain calls and i missed i would often c bet  and be confident i would take it down most of the time.....but if i got re-raised on a k88 board for e.g i would fold on to the next no biggie and if i got called on a q37 board for e.g and a k came on the turn i would double barrel! if a 3 came i would be done with the hand...

...and if i got 4 bet imo think this is an easy fold, note player and on to the next hand...

^^just a basic rule of thumb on how i would play this particular scenario.

I dont agree with the bold bit though, you need to first look at his opening range to make three bets profitable, not his calling/raising range, that's irrelevant until the scenario actually happens.