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What is my play on the turn 50NL
$0.25/$0.50 Blinds No Limit Holdem
Table Bethlehem (Real Money)
Seat 1: RomuloSamp ( $21.02 )
Seat 2: Saddog22 ( $50.25 )
Seat 4: minusch888 ( $90.78 )
Seat 6: WHOAMI ( $50.67 )
Seat 7: Dumk1n ( $78.45 )
Seat 9: Nick_69 ( $65.56 )
WHOAMI posts small blind [$0.25]
Dumk1n posts big blind [$0.50]
Saddog22 posts big blind [$0.50]
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to WHOAMI [ Ac, Js ]
Nick_69 foldss ]
RomuloSamp folds
Saddog22 raises [$1.25]
minusch888 folds
WHOAMI raises [$4.25]
Dumk1n folds
Saddog22 calls [$2.75]
** Dealing flop ** [ Jc, 2h, 5c ] $9.50
WHOAMI bets [$7]
Saddog22 calls [$7]
** Dealing turn ** [ Kc ] $23.50
WHOAMI checks
Saddog22 bets [$14.50]
WHOAMI ????
Comments
I wouldnt usually 3bet pre, but w/e
I'd also bet less on flop
turn is pretty villain dependent, I prob call , what I do on river depends on villain but I'm not really liking any line here will have to think about it
Personally I think you are beat here. But you know he doesn't have the nut flush (you have Ac) so prehaps you can turn your hand into a bluff and shove the turn? Is he capable of folding two pair or a low flush? (assuming he has suited connector low clubs)
Flop bet fine imo
Turn check is inviting him to take it off you so imo i would still be betting out strong on turn and going with the hand because you still have the redraw if he goes with you and remember he might not.
In these situations i always feel as if any bets from you wouldnt be bad bets in long run because if he goes along or pushes to a strong turn bet like i said you have the redraw and could hit or if you miss and he takes it down he then continues to pay you off when your holdings are much stronger in future hands.
in hindsight i should have bet the turn like rentisdue said but i am commiting myself, as played calling the turn seems bad as mentioned by jugglegeek...
if i call can i check fold river if a brick comes? or am i check calling? tough one..
i felt at the time my only option was either to fold (v passive) or shove (bit of a gamble)........
i do think if you fire 1 barrell alot of the time it should be compulsery to fire on the turn because it reps alot stronger and if you check turn you can be bluffed of the pot
As played its fold the turn, he can have flush here KQ alot also KJ where hes just binked. Your defo beat here unless the villain has lot of bluff tendancies.
Edit- Added last paragraph
Am I the only person who thinks that just being ahead of his opening range is not a good enough reason to 3bet? I'm not saying we cant ever 3bet it, but to me if he has a wide opening range I would be much more concerned about the range he continues with.
"Is he capable of folding two pair or a low flush"
I wouldnt try make a 50NL player with reggy looking stats fold two pair or better in a 3bet pot without extremely good reads. lol at him folding a flush, its never ever happening
Betting out turn seems meh to me, its hard for him to call with worse and he cant really bluffraise. When he bets I expect his range to be polarised to hands that beat us and bluffs (sometimes pps turnd into bluffs), so shoving not great as I doubt he calls with worse and he very rarely folds better. I prob call and c/c any river as our line looks v weak when we check turn, but idk that may be spew
Im calling any river
if we are ahead on the turn it doesnt mean shoving is better than calling. I think it mightnt make much difference, but he doesnt fold better hands much (if at all) and its pretty tough for him to call with QJ or worse
Edit: Folding may be best on turn, just see very little reason to shove though. Also there is a reasonable chance he floated flop with worse and bet when we checked turn
I felt quite confident in the hand i did not put him on the flush as a lot of the time he would raise the flop with a draw and the fact i had the A of clubs changes his range a bit, i checked there to control the pot. It was a speed table though but i did think if i led and got check raised then in general i have to either stack off here with low equity being pot commited or fold a hand with equity v any hand, a bit of a waste, so very marginal.
IMO its very bad just to call the turn as im only going to be beating bluff catchers on the river and a reg is rarely double barreling turn and river with air or worse that a pair of jacks.... this also gives me a tough decision on the river with second pair and having a flush out there if a brick comes.
So i do shove!! having got max value from his bluffs, have fold equity v random k and if he has anything else that beats me i can still win...
...buut he snap called with AK of diamonds and the river bricked, oh well i think i played my hand better than he did....
If you are checking turn for pot control, why are you raising when he bets? If you are c/r you are doing the opposite of pot control.
Your actions are obv determined by villains ranges. So what range calls the 3bet pre? What range calls the flop bet? What range bets turn when you check? How does this range react to a shove?
When he bets turn he is either doing it for value or as a bluff. When you shove his bluffs fold, what hands do you expect him to bet for value then fold to a shove? Of these how many beat you? Of the hands that call it off how many do you beat?. Personally I think you have close to 0 FE here v hands that beat you
If you call the turn you are basically bluffcatching, but I dont think you beat enough of his value range to shove for value, and hes only folding worse. Imo calling is far better than shoving and you prob have to call river as well. With specific reads you might be able to call turn and fold to a river bet. Against what hands is shoving turn going to be better than calling ? Folding turn is obv an option
You ask a lot of questions there m8 but first off my pot control line failed when he bet so had to re-think my thought process, i personaly think i had a some fold equity v a random k maybe in hindsight not v this oppo but tbh thats about it, and thinking a random k is in his range is a bit ambitious, remember i had very little time to react here being a speed table,
...I make good profit for being an aggro at this level but you do raise good questions above, but you never seem to like three betting do you? remember oppo is quite a standard if not weak player, he buys in at UTG and raises it up looks v weak to me, really with AK he should have folded flop but i kno v this oppo giving him a bad price etc i will crush him over time by simply just playing pots with him.
So can i ask... if you call and a brick like 3 spades comes on the river what is the plan? because i was askin myself that on the turn...and whatever answere you give please explain why!! thanks
As regards the 3bet pre, I wouldnt 3bet because I think:
I am ahead of his opening range, so I dont want him to fold
I am behind his calling range, so I dont want him to call
I have to fold if he raises, so I dont want him to raise
Thats why I wouldnt 3bet pre, if you have reads he calls light, or folds lots to cbets it might be ok. Also if you have been 3betting him a lot he may call a lot lighter
When he calls 3bet, I would expect him to have a range of something like 99+, AJ+,KQ. He might also call with more pocket pairs (quite likely tbh) and some sc's, maybe KJ,QJ,AT. I'd expect him to 4bet a lot with AK,QQ+. Thats kind of the default range I would give a 23/18 here, again you may know different
Flop you make top pair. Betting is good imo, because you get called by pocket pairs, worse Js, fds and may well get floated or bluff raised
Turn is a tricky spot. Villain has pocket pairs, air, K may have hit him or made a fd if he has Qc. I wouldnt rule out a flush, he may opt to call on that flop sometimes, but the fact he cant have A,K or J of clubs makes it unlikely. If you bet, what worse calls? maybe QJ, a stubborn TT but not much that you beat. What better folds? Maybe QQ or KQ without a diamond, but not sure they would fold either (QQ he prob plays differently). Same applies if you c/r
Can we c/c turn? Well you have just checked a pretty good barrell card, it depends (a) how often he floats, then bluffs the turn and (b) does he bet pocket pairs, QJ here. Its difficult to say really, I prob call and call any river, but I'm really not sure c/f turn or call and c/f river may be better.
Now I am making big assumptions about villain here which could be all wrong,especially if you have been pounding on him. I really think though that 3betting this hand pre oop basically readless against what looks like a taggy reg will put you in lots of tricky spots like this on the turn
Can i ask you What level you play at grantorino?? i love poker and like getting into deep convos about the strategy of the game esp with you as you take the time to post well thought replies....but i would like to know the level you play at m8!!
Ive seen gran on £50nl in the past and also on lower stakes than that but ive got to say that imo i think he should be playing alot higher and maybe br is dictating where he plays at the mo ?
Def knows the game and totally respect he opinions even though i might not agree with all of them but thats the beauty of the game really.
Good luck
The thing with 3betting is that its a dynamic situation. 3betting atc here is very likely +EV in isolation, but if I 3bet every hand my opponent will adjust and it wont be profitable. So in reality I have to choose hands I fold, call or 3bet. If I 3bet with AJ and he folds that prob isnt a very bad result, but if he folds my cards dont matter. So if I want him to fold I prefer 3betting with hands that are too weak to flatcall with.
Being behind his calling range is definitely bad, even if you can sometimes bluff your way out of it. Personally I dont find in general that 50NL players that look reggy flat 3bets then fold everytime they miss flop. Again if this happens your cards dont matter much. If they are that weak, you can prob get much the same result c/r flop, but thats a different debate. Also we have serious rio problems with AJ when we flop a pair
I wouldnt fear the 4bet too much, was just pointing out that Im not that happy with any of the possible outcomes if I 3bet
As regards the stakes I play, I am playing very little at the moment so usually 30NL. Last time I was regularly playing I played 50NL, but prefer playing a little lower when Im not playing much. Before everyone says play more, post less I am often minding a child when I post on here, its much easier dip in and out than get continuous time to grind, and posting keeps me in touch with the game. Also, I am not that good a player, a lot of whatever understanding I have is negated by my tendency to spew (I often wonder is posting a lot better than you actually play a common trait?). Thanks for the kind words though whoamI and rentisdue