C-betting....

Dudeskin8

Bascially I'd just like some tips on c-betting when to do it and when not to as I think it's something I'm getting wrong lately.

Like here for example is sizing too small and OOP is there any point betting here and only advised IP ?

easton11	Big blind		£0.10	£0.10	£6.25
scrumdown	Big blind		£0.10	£0.20	£9.90
	Your hole cards	8 8
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.40	£0.60	£12.18
CUZ27	Call		£0.40	£1.00	£7.28
scrumdown	Fold
rymanani28	Fold
easton11	Fold
Flop
		6 7 J
Dudeskin8	Bet		£0.50	£1.50	£11.68
CUZ27	Call		£0.50	£2.00	£6.78
Turn
		2
Dudeskin8

Dudeskin8

Just another where I have GS outs but best to check and different against 1 OPPO ?

Dudeskin8	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£10.14
stevemug2	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£7.24
	Your hole cards	Q A
Listeeey	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£9.46
encarnacao	Call		£0.10	£0.35	£27.79
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.45	£0.80	£9.69
stevemug2	Fold
Listeeey	Call		£0.40	£1.20	£9.06
encarnacao	Call		£0.40	£1.60	£27.39
Flop
		J 6 10
Dudeskin8

5toneFace

You have a hand (likely to be best one) so you need to protect it. OOP with a hand I'd bet everytime. The board is very wet (drawy) so i'd bet bigger. More around 3/4 pot. If it came out J 7 2 rainbow, then 1/2 pot is fine. 

jugglegeek

1st hand:

Do you have reads on your opponent. If not then I guess that the jack could be in his pre-flop calling range. I think you need to bet bigger if you are going to c-bet this flop. What was your aim for the c-bet here? To rep the jack? to protect your hand from the draw? to disguise you hand if you improve on the turn? If you had AJ you would bet more than half pot so that you charge people to draw to the spades and the straight right? You have about 5% chance of improving on the turn so that's not a good bet in those terms. I would give up on this hand.

2nd hand:

bet about £1.10. This is fine because you have plenty of outs that improve your hand on the turn (kings give you the nuts and aces and queens give you a solid pair but they may also make your opponent's straight so beware). Also your opponents limp called so betting out give you some indication where you are in the hand.

In general terms you should think about why you are c-betting on the flop. Are you representing a hand, i so then how would you play that hand if you actually had it?

rancid

Only time you should c-bet are

1. value
2. semi bluff
3. outright bluff


hand 1
don't mind c/c here

hand 2
check

c-betting OOP i think is just a waste of time unless you have a good value hand

jakally

The AQ  hand isn't a great one to be betting into more than one opponent on that board.

It's a board that can hit their ranges pretty well (probs limping lots of QJ, JT, QT, KJ, KQ hands etc...).

If you were in position, against one opponent, with overcards and a g/s is a good board to be firing at least a couple of times.

The 88 is fine either way, and can be  opponent dependent.

Betting is probably the best line against most opponents, as it sucks when it goes check check on the flop, as there aren't  many great cards for our hand on the turn. 

Sizing is ok if it is consistent with C-bet sizing  on similar boards irrespective of your hand. I tend to like a slightly bigger bet, say 60% pot, but it's not a big issue.

Dudeskin8

Would this be a situation where it's ok to check with A and K on flop and can I call the turn bet or just give them credit for Ace or King?

Represent	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£19.28
Dudeskin8	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£10.63
	Your hole cards	10 10
EUREKA	Fold
2776reed06	Fold
oldgill	Fold
Represent	Call		£0.05	£0.20	£19.23
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.30	£0.50	£10.33
Represent	Call		£0.30	£0.80	£18.93
Flop
		K 7 A
Represent	Check
Dudeskin8	Check
Turn
		3
Represent	Bet		£0.30	£1.10	£18.63
Dudeskin8

rancid

I call here see what he does on river, he could be drawing.
What does he limp with then call a raise.
Could be a weak king.
If he checks river - bluff him )

Dudeskin8

Complete air bluff here but is it a good board to do it on and what sort of boards OOP against 1 OPPO would you not bet on ?

glynn1959	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£9.36
Quippster	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£12.29
	Your hole cards	A 10
tysno1	Fold
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£9.75
CUZ27	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£22.45
DuttyMUFC	Fold
glynn1959	Fold
Quippster	Fold
Flop
		2 9 K
Dudeskin8

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: C-betting....:

The AQ  hand isn't a great one to be betting into more than one opponent on that board. It's a board that can hit their ranges pretty well (probs limping lots of QJ, JT, QT, KJ, KQ hands etc...). If you were in position, against one opponent, with overcards and a g/s is a good board to be firing at least a couple of times. The 88 is fine either way, and can be  opponent dependent. Betting is probably the best line against most opponents, as it sucks when it goes check check on the flop, as there aren't  many great cards for our hand on the turn.  Sizing is ok if it is consistent with C-bet sizing  on similar boards irrespective of your hand. I tend to like a slightly bigger bet, say 60% pot, but it's not a big issue.
Posted by jakally

I was going to post but i would be repeating what this guy said..

the 1010 hand i would c bet there just over half pot is the norm for me, but you just have to slow down if he calls,  fold to any re raise etc 

But at this level it may be best to be selective with your c-bets for them to be successful so just keep to boards that  you could have legitimately hit and try and keep your c-bets consistent with sizing when you hit big hands too! and you can not go wrong. 

WHOAMI196

Dudeskin thats a great board to c bet with the A10 you have the As for the back draw and more importantly the k is well in your pfr range, on board like this sometimes you may have to double barrel though if he calls.

In general i would not c bet a low connected board..

Dudeskin8

Here I took c/f route as OOP on flop that doesn't hit my range unless I represent overpairs, IP would it be ok to bet or just take free card and maybe bet turn if checked to again ?

Quippster	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£4.60
Dudeskin8	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£13.63
	Your hole cards	Q A
suffolklad	Fold
toonboymc	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£20.59
ocean11362	Call		£0.10	£0.35	£5.68
2776reed06	Fold
Quippster	Call		£0.05	£0.40	£4.55
Dudeskin8	Raise		£0.40	£0.80	£13.23
toonboymc	Call		£0.40	£1.20	£20.19
ocean11362	Fold
Quippster	Fold
Flop
		8 4 7
Dudeskin8	Check
toonboymc	Check
Turn
		10
Dudeskin8	Check
toonboymc	Bet		£0.60	£1.80	£19.59
Dudeskin8	Fold

rancid

In Response to Re: C-betting....:

Complete air bluff here but is it a good board to do it on and what sort of boards OOP against 1 OPPO would you not bet on ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

In general boards that hit there range very hard I am not c betting
Also bear in mind the pre flop action and what range do oppo put you on.

eg.
Raise pre w/A10 with 1 caller - flop KJ9
c/c here - no need to c bet

if flop is Q37r - will c-bet

if both are IP then I am c betting 100%
All about board texture and oppo range

Overall I can't see much wrong with the c bet with goods and c bet without everytime the same percentage of pot. Very hard to find anything there if all you do is the same )
Or you could go the other way and be completly random.

grantorino

In Response to Re: C-betting....:

In Response to Re: C-betting.... : In general boards that hit there range very hard I am not c betting Also bear in mind the pre flop action and what range do oppo put you on. eg. Raise pre w/A10 with 1 caller - flop KJ9 c/c here - no need to c bet if flop is Q37r - will c-bet if both are IP then I am c betting 100% All about board texture and oppo range Overall I can't see much wrong with the c bet with goods and c bet without everytime the same percentage of pot. Very hard to find anything there if all you do is the same ) Or you could go the other way and be completly random.
Posted by rancid

Why would you c/c instead of lead?

Dudeskin I would say the main thing when cbetting is to have a plan. What hands do you think call or fold? Am I barrelling certain turns? What are villains tendencies ? Checking as preflop raiser oop is going to put you in a lot of tricky spots imo, if you are doing anything other than c/f

rancid

In Response to Re: C-betting....:

In Response to Re: C-betting.... : Why would you c/c instead of lead?
Posted by grantorino

Just saying some flops just connect more often with oppo range. Rarther c/c then lead and get run off the pot. Think c/c here even if you are the pre flop raiser seems like a better option even with a gut shot to the nutz.

5toneFace

In Response to Re: C-betting....:

In Response to Re: C-betting.... : Just saying some flops just connect more often with oppo range. Rarther c/c then lead and get run off the pot. Think c/c here even if you are the pre flop raiser seems like a better option even with a gut shot to the nutz.
Posted by rancid

No its terrible. Why would you want to c/c if u think its hit oppo range??  c/c the flop is basically awful most of the time. I can understand it in certain situations. But none of the situations we've seen so far. Maybe the 88 hand c/c is ok. But I still prefer to cbet.

PiAnOpLaYa

Looking at some of these hands your play becomes very transparent, giving up on flops you miss and carry on betting if you hit. An average player will soon pick up on this.

In some of the above hands if you were to check to me twice i'd bet into you with any 2.

I know most NL10 are non thinking players but I think you have to start mixing up your play and making a C-bet when you have missed will help, After playing a few 1000 hands at NL10 last month a C-bet works a large % of the time

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: C-betting....:

Looking at some of these hands your play becomes very transparent, giving up on flops you miss and carry on betting if you hit. An average player will soon pick up on this. In some of the above hands if you were to check to me twice i'd bet into you with any 2. I know most NL10 are non thinking players but I think you have to start mixing up your play and making a C-bet when you have missed will help, After playing a few 1000 hands at NL10 last month a C-bet works a large % of the time
Posted by PiAnOpLaYa

So you would bet out on the AQ on low connecting board even though it's rare it hits your range and would this be because it's againat one villain ?

FWIW I do Cbet a LOT when missed i.e AK on Q/J/10 high flops, KQ on A/J/10 high flops etc (and often it works) but often when board is low like 865 I'm never sure if it's the best thing to do and +EV long term especiaaly OOP where if I'm called I have to shut down.

rancid

You hit flop 1/3 so a c bet will work the majority of the time.

If you have good equity then c/c is a good route 

I would say mix it up a little so like said above it does not become obvious.

Or even just c -bet half the pot all the time 

Or just go one step further and do the exact opposite of what you think your oppo thinks you would do )

MkeItRain

the 88 hand I agree for tghe most part cbetting is the best option, must bet bigger though, Its seems like you bet smaller cos your hand is weaker and thats not relly the way to think about sizing Cbets. Chk/call isn't as appealing to me as and 7x hand he has will DEFO chk back, along with a lot of other hands we would like to protect vs.

Agree with jakelly as tempting as the AQ cbet is, this flop does kind of smash pre-flop calling ranges HARD - you do have PLENTY of equity vs a lot of that range though, so if we're cbetting we really want to be betting streets minimum so we get a chance to realise our equity.

second AQ hand is fine to chk cos you can bet the turn sometimes legitimatley (on high cards mianly) and this flop should hit his range much harder than yours.

A good way to think about sizing Cbets is with the elasticity of our villains calling ranges (i.e How mnuch our betSZIE affects the frequency he continues) very dry boards (44J for example) tend to be inelastic, where a high % of his range is going to c/fold to a cbet of any "regular" size, whereas wet boards like in the 88 hand we want to be Cbetting larger because his range will widen with a smaller betsize. 

Dudeskin8

Also on 88 hand where if I bet and they just call is it bad to bet again protecting against flush draw/get value from 7x maybe 6x/possible straight draw or just check/fold and give credit for jack ?

MkeItRain

In Response to Re: C-betting....:

Also on 88 hand where if I bet and they just call is it bad to bet again protecting against flush draw/get value from 7x maybe 6x/possible straight draw or just check/fold and give credit for jack ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

I think betting again is a fine option. (speashly after cbetting so small on the flop) I think his range is still quite weak, spade draws/straight draws(although slightly less likely with us having two 8's) 7's, 6's and he does have some Jacks. 

So betting again for protection and value I think is a good play, and it is a brilliant turncard for us bet around £1.65 imo

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: C-betting....:

In Response to Re: C-betting.... : I think betting again is a fine option. (speashly after cbetting so small on the flop) I think his range is still quite weak, spade draws/straight draws(although slightly less likely with us having two 8's) 7's, 6's and he does have some Jacks.  So betting again for protection and value I think is a good play, and it is a brilliant turncard for us bet around £1.65 imo
Posted by MkeItRain

So if I bet and he flats I'm in c/f come the river even if it's a blank ?

MkeItRain

In Response to Re: C-betting....:

In Response to Re: C-betting.... : So if I bet and he flats I'm in c/f come the river even if it's a blank ?
Posted by Dudeskin8

It's too thin to vbet on the river i think. If you have any reads on the players value betting history (a great thing to note after river showdowns is what hands players valuebet over chking back in marginal river sopts, I.E if you played a hand where you bet a monotone flop, then the turn again when a 4th suit card comes, then give up on the river and he chks back the 3rd nuts - then you can assume his river bets are kinda polarised because he isn't able to valuebet properly) this would mean in a spot like this where the river is the 3h and we check and he bets, we can prolly rule out a huge amount of genuine value hands and wieght his range much morer towards missed draws. 

If you think he IS capable of vaue betting well, then we should probably chk/fold all rivers most of the time.

I'd fold any spade, and probably call cards like 4's/9's/T's - I think I'd also wanna fold A's/K's.

If you don't know anything about his value betting habbits then i'd prolly assume he's polarised to a certain extent because a LOT of players will be