ummm

The_Don90

Readless 4th hand of 7.15 deepie.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Poker_Fail	Small blind		10.00	10.00	5000.00
The_Don90	Big blind		20.00	30.00	4990.00
	Your hole cards	A Q
	Raise		100.00	130.00	4960.00
Russ76	Fold
free-ride	Fold
	Call		100.00	230.00	4870.00
Poker_Fail	Fold
The_Don90	Raise		320.00	550.00	4670.00
	Call		240.00	790.00	4720.00
	Call		240.00	1030.00	4630.00
Flop
		5 8 Q
The_Don90	Bet		772.50	1802.50	3897.50
	Fold
	Call		772.50	2575.00	3857.50
Turn
		9
The_Don90	Bet		1931.25	4506.25	1966.25
	All-in		3857.50	8363.75	0.00
The_Don90	....

Dudeskin8

I would just call preflop personally as it's a 5x raise UTG with a call and you're gonna be OOP having to cbet big.

Flop fine maybe bit less.

Turn once you bet that much it's gotta be bad to fold.

Batkin88

i would call pre allowing a lower c - bet on flop. Your never ahead here in my eyes at best he is calling with top pair anda flush draw so i would fold just shouldn't really be in this spot unless you know he is stacking off light and your happy to stick it in

GREGHOGG

flat pre and pot control, its a deepstack

as played you have to stack off and hope hes bad enough to have KQ or QJ

you played this far too agressivly readless in a deepie imo, its only ace high

DOHHHHHHH

Don't mind the 3bet at all against these type of players, they'll call u with lots of worse Ax and Qx hands, as well as a load of other junk. Basically they're never folding, and only 4betting better.

Dunno about post flop, I'd never ever be folding with your hand in this tournament, but that doesn't neccesserily make it right.

Think pre flop is fine tho.

WHOAMI196

imo i think ur over-playing ur hand, i agree with greg..far too aggressive early in a deep stack tourney. Play super tight at these early levels or you will be out as quickly as you sat down..

LOL_RAISE

really dislike 3bet pre to UTG 5x open in the first orbit of a deepstack, if we somehow manage to win preflop we've increased our stack size by a massive 5%!!!!!

if not we have to play postflop oop readless in an inflated pot

i think your flop&turn sizing should be smaller, snap fold to minraise.

tempted to say check turn for pot control but that might just be results orientated

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: ummm:

really dislike 3bet pre to UTG 5x open in the first orbit of a deepstack, if we somehow manage to win preflop we've increased our stack size by a massive 5%!!!!! if not we have to play postflop oop readless in an inflated pot i think your flop&turn sizing should be smaller, snap fold to minraise. tempted to say check turn for pot control but that might just be results orientated
Posted by LOL_RAISE

agree with this 100%

TommyD

In Response to Re: ummm:

really dislike 3bet pre to UTG 5x open in the first orbit of a deepstack, if we somehow manage to win preflop we've increased our stack size by a massive 5%!!!!! if not we have to play postflop oop readless in an inflated pot i think your flop&turn sizing should be smaller, snap fold to minraise. tempted to say check turn for pot control but that might just be results orientated
Posted by LOL_RAISE

I think the turn is defo a check readless.  We've reduced all of the hands we can bet for value from to KQ only (and even that's a little loose to see turn up here a decent amount of the time).

Don, my first reaction was 'how has this pot become so bloated?'  Defintely think we needed to control this pot better.  OOP and readless we're pretty much blind as to how well we've flopped versus the villain 3bet calling range.

rancid

think flat and c/c for control

assuming the 5x raise is going to be worse than AQ is kinda risky readless

3 betting AQ this deep OOP imo is not required

Think about how would you play this hand 250 bigs deep in cash, AQ doesn't warrant going to war does it )

Mohican

Putting all that's been said, on the turn he's got 60% of his starting stack in the pot when hes shoved on he surely has to call, being pot comitted and all that. Or does he have enough left to make a fold and carry on in the tourney?

MkeItRain

In Response to Re: ummm:

really dislike 3bet pre to UTG 5x open in the first orbit of a deepstack, if we somehow manage to win preflop we've increased our stack size by a massive 5%!!!!! if not we have to play postflop oop readless in an inflated pot i think your flop&turn sizing should be smaller, snap fold to minraise. tempted to say check turn for pot control but that might just be results orientated
Posted by LOL_RAISE

+1 bad spot to 3bet preflop as we fold out all the dominated hands, AT/QJ etc and once he's called preflop and called the flop i kinda expect you're going to get shown ACEs or KINGs here quite a lot.

tbh I would actually check the flop as you can rep AK/JJ a bit better and MIGHT get 1 (or possibly 2) streets of 9's or T's, you're hand isn't that venreable either so chking through wont be too disasterous, there is no world where e can get 3 streets of value in this hand. Agreed your flop and turn sizing should be smaller, this board is so dry we really want weaker parts of his range to keep in the hand, so i'd bet something like 40% flop 50% turn if I was going to bet/bet for value.

As played turn is a mandatory fold, you have the best hand hardly ever and I think your getting shown KK or AA more often than not

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: ummm:

In Response to Re: ummm : +1 bad spot to 3bet preflop as we fold out all the dominated hands, AT/QJ etc and once he's called preflop and called the flop i kinda expect you're going to get shown ACEs or KINGs here quite a lot. tbh I would actually check the flop as you can rep AK/JJ a bit better and MIGHT get 1 (or possibly 2) streets of 9's or T's, you're hand isn't that venreable either so chking through wont be too disasterous, there is no world where e can get 3 streets of value in this hand. Agreed your flop and turn sizing should be smaller, this board is so dry we really want weaker parts of his range to keep in the hand, so i'd bet something like 40% flop 50% turn if I was going to bet/bet for value. As played turn is a mandatory fold, you have the best hand hardly ever and I think your getting shown KK or AA more often than not
Posted by MkeItRain

We definitely don't in this tourny. Which is why the 3b is good. imo.

The_Don90

Lets be a little result orientated. Having seeing the results - below, whats are views now, do they stand?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Poker_Fail	Small blind		10.00	10.00	5000.00
The_Don90	Big blind		20.00	30.00	4990.00
	Your hole cards	A Q
kennybad	Raise		100.00	130.00	4960.00
Russ76	Fold
free-ride	Fold
Rumen1gge	Call		100.00	230.00	4870.00
Poker_Fail	Fold
The_Don90	Raise		320.00	550.00	4670.00
kennybad	Call		240.00	790.00	4720.00
Rumen1gge	Call		240.00	1030.00	4630.00
Flop
		5 8 Q
The_Don90	Bet		772.50	1802.50	3897.50
kennybad	Fold
Rumen1gge	Call		772.50	2575.00	3857.50
Turn
		9
The_Don90	Bet		1931.25	4506.25	1966.25
Rumen1gge	All-in		3857.50	8363.75	0.00
The_Don90	Call		1926.25	10290.00	40.00
The_Don90	Show	A Q
Rumen1gge	Show	J Q
River
		10
Rumen1gge	Win	Straight to the Queen	10290.00		10290.00

rancid

I would think you will be behind more often than not if you 3 bet pre

So much more easy value in flatting and if your 4 bet your folding AQ right ? 

This case you get called by a station, which is nice but it still doesn't make it the best thing to do the majority of the time

You can pat yourself on the back this time but hey ho... 

LOL_RAISE

yeah you lost the hand so fold pre

The_Don90

In Response to Re: ummm:

yeah you lost the hand so fold pre
Posted by LOL_RAISE

lol epic responce. i was referring to now that we have info on the villans calling range wou;d you recommened to play it diff.

rancid

In Response to Re: ummm:

In Response to Re: ummm : lol epic responce. i was referring to now that we have info on the villans calling range wou;d you recommened to play it diff.
Posted by The_Don90

Is it really a reasonable assumption to make that all oppo in this MTT will  always call a 3 bet light, my simple answer is no.  I think forget about this hand In isolation and if you could run this same situation 100 times how many times are we going to the flop versus worse.

If you have notes that oppo calls 3 bet light then it’s a good ploy but without reads then frankly I don’t like it.

To think that you won this hand so therefore ie. Your 3 betting AQ OOP 100% of the time 250 bb deep then good luck. Think I would rarther 3 bet 67s OOP.

thinks lol_raise is suggesting if your results orientated then you should fold pre because you lost the hand :P

YOUNG_GUN

IMO this is super standard stack of in these you will be good alot of the time and the odd time you come up against a nit just a sigh

i think played hand as i would

debdobs_67

I aint ever 3 betting pre with AQ in this hand , as stated by others its daft in a deepy to inflate pot like this as ya can be facing anything by any player here , as played i have to call the all-in tho

TommyD

I'm sticking with what I said despite the results.  Readless I don't think KQ and QJ turn up enough to make this the correct line.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: ummm:

I'm sticking with what I said despite the results.  Readless I don't think KQ and QJ turn up enough to make this the correct line.
Posted by TommyD

ty tommy. I was showing the results to show a rough idea on what the villan was like. As this is a £2 tournament i guess i thought there range would be much wider. Also looking at them Calling two sperate raises i thought tht again would make there range wider.

Meh im such a n00b

YOUNG_GUN

In Response to Re: ummm:

I'm sticking with what I said despite the results.  Readless I don't think KQ and QJ turn up enough to make this the correct line.
Posted by TommyD

I can understand your line here tommy too but i have played quite a few of these so mines really from experiance they show up with KQ/QJ alot here. unless we have some solid reads then TPTK is the nuts vs randoms

MkeItRain

You could sell me on the 3bet preflop if people really play this badly, but the flop and turn bets are DEFO too big, if the play is poor enough that we can get three streets of value here then we may as well bet 40% pot on the flop, 50% on the turn then jam the river, that way we keep weaker hands in his range and our hand isn't that venreable

grantorino

even against fish playing AQ 250 deep in a 3bet pot oop is going to be tricky