would you have called my reshove if you were the villain?

robyoung · October 2011

just wondering what the general peeps on here think about this call, the villain had been active for the last few hands stealing blinds so i had a good feeling i was ahead of hes range hence why i shoved in, but if you were the villain would you have called, taking into account the chips he had invested into the hand already, is this the right call to make? i personally wouldnt have called but im not saying its the wrong play in any way, just would like to know what most would do, bearing in mind that i had been stealing a few blinds here and there, this was the 1st time i reshoved on someone on this table, trying to rep a bigger hand then i had

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalancerobyoungSmall blind 2500.002500.0082633.86poppy765Big blind 5000.007500.0045060.00 Your hole cardsA9 sascha2026Fold efcmikRaise 15000.0022500.0047906.00robyoungAll-in 82633.86105133.860.00poppy765Fold efcmikAll-in 47906.00153039.860.00robyoungUnmatched bet 22227.86130812.0022227.86robyoungShowA9 efcmikShowJK Flop 243 Turn 2 River 10 efcmikWinFlush to the King130812.00 130812.00

TommyD · October 2011

Should call or not doesn't matter. What does matter is the villain has invested just under a quarter of their stack with the open. People rarely bet/fold 23%-ish of their stack preflop.

Now how active have you been? Can you have all pairs tens and lower? Can you have a lot of aces in your range? Where is A9o in your re-shove range here as the villain perceives it? Assuming A9 is towards the bottom of your re-shove range he is hovering near to the right price but just under I think (my stove trial period has long since expired, don't rate it enough to buy so if someone has please chip in). If the villain believes he's in enough 40/60 and flip situations he will see this as the right call.

Are you really representing a premium hand? Have you been nitty to this point or shoving actively?

robyoung · October 2011

In Response to Re: would you have called my reshove if you were the villain?:

Should call or not doesn't matter. What does matter is the villain has invested just under a quarter of their stack with the open. People rarely bet/fold 23%-ish of their stack preflop. Now how active have you been? Can you have all pairs tens and lower? Can you have a lot of aces in your range? Where is A9o in your re-shove range here as the villain perceives it? Assuming A9 is towards the bottom of your re-shove range he is hovering near to the right price but just under I think (my stove trial period has long since expired, don't rate it enough to buy so if someone has please chip in). If the villain believes he's in enough 40/60 and flip situations he will see this as the right call. Are you really representing a premium hand? Have you been nitty to this point or shoving actively?
Posted by TommyD

i havent been shoving frequently, only here and there and none of them were ever looked up so nobody knew what i was doing this with, thats why i shoved, i was trying to use my image to win the pot, would you have called here tommy even tho you know your behind or flipping at best? if i was in hes shoes i would have personally shoved pre instead of raising and but the hard desicion onto me.

MkeItRain · October 2011

he should never be doing anything but going all in with KJs in thaat spot, once he has decided to open and not jam (maybe trying to look a bit stronger to disuade hands like A9/AT from playing when maybe they woud call a shove) then he has to call it off, folding would be un-thinkable,

not sure I love the A9o jam, really depends on the player, the fact he's opened not jammed UTG off 9bigs would prolly make me wanna fold but I dont think jamming could ever really be a mistake (there is ante's in this comp yes?)

as for whoever said they dont rate PokerStove....it's prolly the bst piece of poker software ever invented, no idea how anyone cant rate it - that being said there are better alternatives nowadays,

www.propokertools.com is a free site which is actually a bit better, it also has an app called Odds Oracle, which you do have to pay for, something like $60 or something and it's awesome, but often a bit complicated. Pro Poker Tools is very good.

rancid · October 2011

It's not about what your oppo does but what you do.

You done the right thing, you ahead going to the flop - stop grumbling )

You have no control over what other players do

)

Your oppo opened too large and he should fold to a shove but hey ho....

MkeItRain · October 2011

and villain only needs 25% equity to call

32906(his call)/130812(matched potsize) = 0.25(and smoe other numbers)

Lets give you the tightest possible re-shove range of JJ-AA, AK/AQs and AKo

Player,Equity,Wins Hi,Ties Hi

KcJc, 28.0916%,27.6637%,0.8557%

"JJ+, AQ:xx, AK:xx, AK", 71.9084%,71.4806%,0.8557%

Give you the rane you were prolly shoving

Player,Equity,Wins Hi,Ties Hi

KcJc, 38.4784%,37.8249%,1.3070%

"77+, A2+:xx, A8+, KQ:xx, KQ", 61.5216%,60.8681%,1.3070%

See it's literally an impossible fold

LOL_RAISE · October 2011

he calls off 48k mike not 32

MkeItRain · October 2011

In Response to Re: would you have called my reshove if you were the villain?:

he calls off 48k mike not 32
Posted by LOL_RAISE

Sorry if i got this wrong, still struggling with these HH's

he opens for 15k of 47,902, so when he has to call all in, the call is for 32,902?

either way KJcc should open move all-in, he shouldn't raise to 10k and fold, nor should he not go all in. I think A9 is kinda close, providing there are antes I think its 100% fine and prolly optimal, but If there isn't antes I think we should fold.

The_Don90 · October 2011

you have no FE ino here.

rancid · October 2011

start of hand he got 62,906 - 12 bigs

fold or shove really

if he is stealing then he can only open for min or say 11,500 - folding to a shove leaves him 10 bigs

If the guys has been stealing i think the shove is fine, think it's just a loose call tbh

Not like he is inducing a shove with his open is it, can't see how he is happy calling a shove with KJ

forget the maths if he should call it's just a bad open isn't it.

Also if you realise you have no FE against a steal then this is not a bad thing as your ahead like all the time !

I don't see the point at looking at the hand in hindsight and saying pre flop was bad play but o well I now I have the price to call being a good thing long term - or maybe I just being daft

TommyD · October 2011

In Response to Re: would you have called my reshove if you were the villain?:

In Response to Re: would you have called my reshove if you were the villain? : i havent been shoving frequently, only here and there and none of them were ever looked up so nobody knew what i was doing this with, thats why i shoved, i was trying to use my image to win the pot, would you have called here tommy even tho you know your behind or flipping at best? if i was in hes shoes i would have personally shoved pre instead of raising and but the hard desicion onto me.
Posted by robyoung

Hard to say as I would not have made a 3x raise this late on in the MTT and certainly not with that size stack (pretty much a shove or fold size, maybe get away with one min raise/fold but don't much like that either). Pretending I have misclicked it's so very close. It might depend on if we're in the money, how far till the money, other stack sizes around where I have put myself etc. I'm edging over to fold if pressed but it's very close, just because of the amount put in.

TommyD · October 2011

In Response to Re: would you have called my reshove if you were the villain?:

he should never be doing anything but going all in with KJs in thaat spot, once he has decided to open and not jam (maybe trying to look a bit stronger to disuade hands like A9/AT from playing when maybe they woud call a shove) then he has to call it off, folding would be un-thinkable, not sure I love the A9o jam, really depends on the player, the fact he's opened not jammed UTG off 9bigs would prolly make me wanna fold but I dont think jamming could ever really be a mistake (there is ante's in this comp yes?) as for whoever said they dont rate PokerStove....it's prolly the bst piece of poker software ever invented, no idea how anyone cant rate it - that being said there are better alternatives nowadays, www.propokertools.com is a free site which is actually a bit better, it also has an app called Odds Oracle, which you do have to pay for, something like $60 or something and it's awesome, but often a bit complicated. Pro Poker Tools is very good.
Posted by MkeItRain

That was me. I said I didn't rate it enough to buy it, never said it wasn't a good bit of kit. As a technical piece of work it's fabulous with one major problem, it's only as good as the information put into it. Sadly as this information comes from human beings it's not always accurate. Not a dig but I've looked at your later reply and I personally think you have the OP's reshove range wrong by a chunk. And here lies in the problem, you might be right, I might be right, but can we ever be correct enough of the time to make our 'stovings' worthwhile information?

grantorino · October 2011

if I opened for 3BB with KJ with these stacks I would be calling a shove

Crunchybob · October 2011

Not alot u can do here, i wudnt of called, and i def wudnt of jammed.

a 3xbb raise in this spot reeks of strength, and remember there soooted

would you have called my reshove if you were the villain?

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