NL8 shove dilemma

Pysterman

Pysterman	Small blind		£0.04	£0.04	£7.21
philc8502	Big blind		£0.08	£0.12	£3.21
	Your hole cards	Q Q
er425	Fold
XXX	Raise		£0.40	£0.52	£7.51
Jono_Brwr	Fold
JGIBBRFC	Fold
Pysterman	Raise		£1.12	£1.64	£6.09
philc8502	Fold
XXX	All-in		£7.51	£9.15	£0.00
Pysterman

Would you call this readless?

With reads, when would you call this at this level?

jugglegeek

I'd make the call. If he has aces or kings then he should be betting about £4 to give the illusion of fold equity to try and make you shove with jacks or tens. This type of 4-bet shove from £1.16 to £7.91 just looks like AK to me. Of course if he shows up with AA or KK then you must make notes not to fall for this again.

yb

In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:

I'd make the call. If he has aces or kings then he should be betting about £4 to give the illusion of fold equity to try and make you shove with jacks or tens. This type of 4-bet shove from £1.16 to £7.91 just looks like AK to me. Of course if he shows up with AA or KK then you must make notes not to fall for this again.
Posted by jugglegeek

how often do you think people put more than half their stack in preflop and then fold?

Pysterman

In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:

I'd make the call. If he has aces or kings then he should be betting about £4 to give the illusion of fold equity to try and make you shove with jacks or tens. This type of 4-bet shove from £1.16 to £7.91 just looks like AK to me. Of course if he shows up with AA or KK then you must make notes not to fall for this again.
Posted by jugglegeek

I did call. He had AA.

Just made the move up to NL8 from NL4. Not a successful one at all. I just keep running into better hands when I have good ones and I don't believe my opponents' raises. Despite what people on other threads have said, I'm convinced NL8 is harder than NL4, or at least it plays differently.

I'm back down to NL4 to rebuild my bankroll. Somewhat depressing.

rancid

Are you really 3 bet folding if the answer is yes don't 3 bet

If your 3 betting with QQ, which is fine you should know what you are going to do before you 3 bet against this oppo

If you have no idea of oppo 4 bet shoving range then you can fold - AA/KK will turn up enough of the time to make it a good fold long term

debdobs_67

Provided i havnt commited too much by 3 bettin with QQ then i will usually fold to a 4 bet shove cos ive found over a long period of time they always show AA or KK here , so in this instance i woulda folded

bolly580

not beliving your opponents raises sounds like NL4 itus, get so used to poor players shovin with nothin when you move up youve gotten into a habbit of calling lightly

Dudeskin8

<100 bb's I NEVER fold here.

Pysterman

In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:

not beliving your opponents raises sounds like NL4 itus, get so used to poor players shovin with nothin when you move up youve gotten into a habbit of calling lightly
Posted by bolly580

I don't think I was calling lightly in this spot, but yes, I agree. I know I have made a few mistakes lately. But this seems to back up my view that NL8 plays harder than NL4, despite some people saying they play identically. When I move back up I will definitely have to adjust my play and show more respect (or at least pay much more attention to what players are doing as I have definitely come across some crazy fish at NL8). 

It's interesting that opinions seem to be split as to whether I made the correct play here. It makes me feel a bit better that some of you more experienced players would have done the same thing.

rancid

In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:

<100 bb's I NEVER fold here.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Dude,

 So you think AK and worse will turn up here more often than AA/KK in this 4 bet shove situation ?

grantorino

call. Even if he has AA and you make a note, this doesnt always mean you shouldnt call next time he does it.

3b/f may be ok if you know he flats a lot with worse and his raising range crushes you, but I wouldnt make a habit of it without very good reads. If as debdobs says this is usually the case maybe you can do it readless

Also your 3b is way too small

rancid

In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:

call. Even if he has AA and you make a note, this doesnt always mean you shouldnt call next time he does it. 3b/f may be ok if you know he flats a lot with worse and his raising range crushes you, but I wouldnt make a habit of it without very good reads. If as debdobs says this is usually the case maybe you can do it readless Also your 3b is way too small
Posted by grantorino

But without reads is it not best to always assume a 4 bet shove is KK/AA until proven otherwise ? 

Think you really need to have there ranges spot on. 

I don't think it's very good assuming all 4 bet shoves at NL4/NL8 are AK & worse, seriously levelling yourself in these spots.

You need and must have some notes down on how they play to give you some indication of there ranges, even if you have only seen a few orbits. Even so called fish know they must 4 bet shove AA and KK )

If oppo ranges 4 bet shove 10's+ then yeah no problem stick it in

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:

call. Even if he has AA and you make a note, this doesnt always mean you shouldnt call next time he does it. 3b/f may be ok if you know he flats a lot with worse and his raising range crushes you, but I wouldnt make a habit of it without very good reads. If as debdobs says this is usually the case maybe you can do it readless Also your 3b is way too small
Posted by grantorino

+1 3 bet needs to be Nearer £2 imo

Dudeskin8

Ranny we're 90bb's deep here, we can't 3bet fold that deep lol.

Like Gran said make note but still call next time lolz.

rancid

In Response to Re: NL8 shove dilemma:

Ranny we're 90bb's deep here, we can't 3bet fold that deep lol. Like Gran said make note but still call next time lolz.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Yeah my first post was if your not calling a shove don't 3 bet but hey ho - kinda gone off the rails a bit here with this one I was more thinking playing deeper, we should not just assume it's going to be AK or worse at NL4/NL8

but anyways...if both players are deeper should this change your 3 bet,4 bet, 5 bet range ? If it does then how does it affect the range you put you oppo on

Dudeskin8

Yh deeper it plays very different but not till like >150bb maybe more.