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Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend?

edited October 2011 in Poker Chat
I have a horrible history @ online poker.  Zero BRM.  Huge gains, follwed by huge losses.  In profit overall, but huge swings that have been needless and totally unpredictable.  Mainly due to ridiculous BRM.

I play live 3 or 4 nights a week.  Mainly £25 - £100 MTT's and 50p/£1 and £1/£2 cash.  I make a solid wage at this.  But this success never really has translated - with any continuity - to online due to my poor online self control.

A friend (a very wealthy friend - own business - who is a solid rec player) has offered to stake me 4 months worth of SKy ME's on a 50% profit sharing deal.  Also that 5% of net profit is payable at end of 6 months.  No vegas, no cash.  Just the ME's.

He and I have played together for around 4 years. He has seen my successes and failures, always knowing that dicipline has been my prevailing issue.  He basically believes that I need someone to be answerable to online, I think potentially he is right.

Doing the profit share should be simple enough from Account details.  Any cash that is split 50/50, above buyin, immediately withdrawn into a specifically created account.

Issues I fear are money and friends thing.  We are not THAT close, but pretty friendly none the less.  Other issue being I'd likely resent giving him the cash, as its not like I dont have the offline BR to play.  Mainly just the unwillingness to do so.  But If I am unwilling and he is offering............ its not like I can lose anything, so it is tempting.

Most importantly is that I do think I need some kind of external ownership.  As I do do horrificly dumb things with my BR.  But if I know I have to be answerable AND can only play the ME's (and possibly reasonable evening BH's) maybe it will turn the corner on my online BRM flaws.

Well thats me and my issue laid out.  I'm not looking for certain individuals to take cheap shots (you know who you are), but I'd really appreciate peoples advice on the matter, or anyone with similar arrangments, or arrangments offered.

Cheers.

Comments

  • edited October 2011
    Go for it - nothing to lose and it might just give you that bit more discipline with someone looking over your shoulder.


    One of the skins off a big poker cage is offering a sponsorship deal based on rake at the moment. A portion of rake over and above the normal rake is put aside for entry into larger online and live events.

    Might be of interest to some of the heavy grinders.
  • edited October 2011
    Thanks Alan.  I think I'd be silly to turn it down in honesty.  Just dont really want any complications down the line, so if its hammered out clear as crystal at get go I hope to avoid it.

    May even speak to our fiends at SKy and see if I can negotiate a deposit bonus as a cherry.
  • edited October 2011
    I cant see it myself. Until you have the BR management skills with your own cash. how can you play with someone elses ?

    Sounds like you are hoping it will give you the responsibility you cant muster for yourself. But it is still going to be you who needs the self discipline.

    Friends and money are not a comfortable mix.

    Do it for yourself, set rigid budgets, targets and if necessary stop loss limits. And maybe not play the same levels you do live until your online game is self supporting.

    My personal bias is towards online tournaments, as it is so easy to chase losses at the cash tables.



    Best of luck anyway !
  • edited October 2011
    Hi Amybr
    Normally if someone stakes you, you will have to give them the stake back + 50% of the profit.

    Here is an example:

    Share of Profits = The Amount Won (£100.00) minus the Amount Staked (£33.00)
    This is then Divided by 2, so it would be: £100.00 minus £33.00, divided into 2 = £33.50 (Profit)
    The Amount you give back to your staker is: Stake Back £33.00 + Share of Profits £33.50) = £66.50

    So you get £33.50 and he gets £66.50 bases on the above entry fee & winnings

    Make sure if you accept his offer, you thrash out and agree to all terms and conditions in writing prior to accepting, as these sort of agreements can go very wrong resulting in loss of friendships etc.

    Also keep a record / database of all games played, showing profit and loss so there are no misunderstandings.

    Many professionals use staking as it helps cut losses during periods of "Variance" but it is more common for them to sell a smaller proportion of their stake to multiple clients.

    Give yourself plenty of time to think before accepting his offer and also have a think of how it may effect your game using someone else's money and the pressure of trying to cash regularly because of it.

    That all from me

    Best of luck in whatever you decide.
    Pokertrev
      
  • edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend?:
    I cant see it myself. Until you have the BR management skills with your own cash. how can you play with someone elses ? Sounds like you are hoping it will give you the responsibility you cant muster for yourself. But it is still going to be you who needs the self discipline. Friends and money are not a comfortable mix. Do it for yourself, set rigid budgets, targets and if necessary stop loss limits. And maybe not play the same levels you do live until your online game is self supporting. My personal bias is towards online tournaments, as it is so easy to chase losses at the cash tables. Best of luck anyway !
    Posted by penguin7

    Thanks.  This was very much at the front of my mind and your right to point it out.

    Doh :p
  • edited October 2011
    if your good enough to be a winning player at live cash, and be able to manage your own money, I really can't see why you can't do that for Sky Poker main events.

    if having the cash online is the problem, then simply deposit the cost of the main event on a daily basis just before it starts, so you aren't tempted by cash/sngs.

    you can also ban yourself from sky vegas, if you so wish.


  • edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend?:
    Hi Amybr Normally if someone stakes you, you will have to give them the stake back + 50% of the profit. Here is an example: Share of Profits = The Amount Won (£100.00) minus the Amount Staked (£33.00) This is then Divided by 2, so it would be: £100.00 minus £33.00, divided into 2 = £33.50 (Profit) The Amount you give back to your staker is: Stake Back £33.00 + Share of Profits £33.50) = £66.50 So you get £33.50 and he gets £66.50 bases on the above entry fee & winnings Make sure if you accept his offer, you thrash out and agree to all terms and conditions in writing prior to accepting, as these sort of agreements can go very wrong resulting in loss of friendships etc. Also keep a record / database of all games played, showing profit and loss so there are no misunderstandings. Many professionals use staking as it helps cut losses during periods of "Variance" but it is more common for them to sell a smaller proportion of their stake to multiple clients. Give yourself plenty of time to think before accepting his offer and also have a think of how it may effect your game using someone else's money and the pressure of trying to cash regularly because of it. That all from me Best of luck in whatever you decide. Pokertrev   
    Posted by POKERTREV
    Thankyou.  Wasnt sure what a standard deal was on this, so thaks for the info.

    From what I understand its a clear cut offer of £1500 into a dedicated account.  All profit (above buyin) being plit 50/50 with a % of net profit going back at end of 6 months.  Do need to clarify if origonal £1500 is pay backable.  Thankyou.

    Its a reasonably casual arrangment, but I do want it cast iron from get go. 
  • edited October 2011
    You don't need staking?

    You're well rolled for 1 £25-100 mtt per night 5 times a week, skys mtt's are at the lower end of that price range.

    I don't see what's in it for you.

    There's a 24 hour deposit limit on sky, if it's to keep you on the straight and narrow in terms of BRM.

    No need to share ur winnings.
  • edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend?:
    if your good enough to be a winning player at live cash, and be able to manage your own money, I really can't see why you can't do that for Sky Poker main events. if having the cash online is the problem, then simply deposit the cost of the main event on a daily basis just before it starts, so you aren't tempted by cash/sngs. you can also ban yourself from sky vegas, if you so wish.
    Posted by scotty77

    Yeah banned vegas already.

    I dont really like the idea of depositing to play, as it tends to hamper my decisions.  But there definately are pros to it in the sense of not leaving money lingering.  I'll give it some thought.

    I've withdrawn a decent chunk of cash from two snowmen with a another next to it over last few months.  But playing in HV spots.  But over the last week or so Its just become shocking.  Briefly put, 5 back to back hands, 200BB's shipped at turn as />94% to be rickrolled to 3 outers.  Cashed out remaining funds and decided to put the focus back to live.  Rally did get the bug back for online as was crushing the games, with a near 90% cash rate @ S+G's and DYM's.

    But my faith was shattered off the back of a ridic low end run.  Not a criticism to anyone or any site.  As said, I mainly put myself in those spoys by playing beyond BR, it wouldnt be as hurtful otherwise.  So once again made the decision to longer play with my money online.  But then there is this offer on the table.....
  • edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend?:
    You don't need staking? You're well rolled for 1 £25-100 mtt per night 5 times a week, skys mtt's are at the lower end of that price range. I don't see what's in it for you. There's a 24 hour deposit limit on sky, if it's to keep you on the straight and narrow in terms of BRM. No need to share ur winnings.
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    Hey Doh.

    Mostly covered this in my reply to scotty.

    I just dont want to use my own money to play online anymore.  Its run its course again for me.  But I enjoyed it while it lasted.  The combination of my lacki of self control and critical low end beats have made me losing a foregone conclusion.  Pretty much a self fulfilling prohecy.

    This friend has seen me cash 5 figures in 3 live MTT's over the last four years.  Then seen me donk it back in a dozen different ways.  He knows me and my flaws.  The purpose behind the backing is supposedly to even out my impulsiveness and recklessness.

    Live I have a tight reign on myself.  Have always been honest about my flaws - from day 1 - in regard to ridic BRM.  It hasnt got any better, worse likely.  So maybe I do need somene to run interference on it, which would be worth the losses in profit.
  • edited October 2011
    you wont be able to play live as much if you play the me every night unless you play in the day or you take your lappy with you,you come across as a decent live player who makes a profit so it could interfere with that side of your game, i dunno m8 tough decision
  • edited October 2011
    Amybr. You once told me what that stood for. Always Mind Your Bank Roll, if i remember right. Seems weird that yo then have BRM issues.

    Anyways im the worst for BRM. I used to have a small similar style stake with a family member. Although we used it only for going away for a weekend and having a major tournament as a family. We rarley do anything together so since we all play poker 2 or 3 UKIPTs seemed a good idea. However in Dublin it was clear that the money issues because a major strain on the family. They didnt like how i played a hand based purley on reads. They felt i should have been playing ABC poker grinding away waiting for a hand.

    Anyways i believe this puts me to the coin of saying not to go for it. I fully believe from your post your friend know about you and the game so the same issues would unlikley come up.
  • edited October 2011
    lol don digging someone bankroll :P

    on a serious note where can i get a freind like this i'll earn us both a fortune if i could play every ME for 4months, god you run good lol gl
  • edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend?:
    Amybr. You once told me what that stood for. Always Mind Your Bank Roll, if i remember right. Seems weird that yo then have BRM issues. Anyways im the worst for BRM. I used to have a small similar style stake with a family member. Although we used it only for going away for a weekend and having a major tournament as a family. We rarley do anything together so since we all play poker 2 or 3 UKIPTs seemed a good idea. However in Dublin it was clear that the money issues because a major strain on the family. They didnt like how i played a hand based purley on reads. They felt i should have been playing ABC poker grinding away waiting for a hand. Anyways i believe this puts me to the coin of saying not to go for it. I fully believe from your post your friend know about you and the game so the same issues would unlikley come up.
    Posted by The_Don90

    \exactly don. 

    My screen name wasnt chosen for fun or lightheartedness.  It was chosen because I am very aware of my own stupid flaw.

    The best player in the world cannot be successful if they play beyond their BR, the nature of variance will not allow it.

    I'm far from great.  I'm above par at the games i choose to play, but i do silly things.  My name is Dean.  I chose Always Manage Your Bank Roll to remind myself that was what I needed to do.  Poker fail :p

    Am in better spirits after winning some good money live tonight.

    If I cant work out this thing with my friend, I( think I'm going to follow Scotty77's advice.  Its been on my mind all night.  My BRM is rubbish.  Why not just deposit for the games I want to play?  By the way, TY scotty - this seems like a good way forward that i hadnt considored.  I went out with 300 squid tonight, and came back with far more than that with a 2nd in live Mtt plus last longer bets and cash game profit.  Why not just deosit to play specific games.  Have friends that do it and do well from it.

  • edited October 2011
    Im with scotty and dohhh on this one , do it for yoyrself by setting the limit AND self exclude from vegas etc , i dont see any need for you to share any winnings.
  • edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend?:
    Thanks Alan.  I think I'd be silly to turn it down in honesty.  Just dont really want any complications down the line, so if its hammered out clear as crystal at get go I hope to avoid it. May even speak to our fiends at SKy and see if I can negotiate a deposit bonus as a cherry.
    Posted by AMYBR
    Watch out for those Sky fiends!
  • edited October 2011

    If it’s within your BR then just play with your own money

    The only reason to be staked is to play above your BR.

     

    Therefore there’s an incentive for both parties.

     

    1.     The person staking you believes in your ability so therefore they gain money if there are correct.

    2.     You get to play at a higher level and win money with zero risk (Poker players dream tbh)

     

     

    I think if you choose to play with this person’s money then I think it will affect you mentally when playing because it already has by simply posting here.

    Sort out you own BRM issues because what’s to say you won’t mess up with someone else’s money.

     

    Also friends and money don’t mix :S

  • edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend?:
    In Response to Re: Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend? : Watch out for those Sky fiends!
    Posted by Machka
    Lol thought this was FYP :p

    Meant to be friends at sky :p

    Thanks for the input everyone. 

    In regard to sorting my issues with online BRM, i dont think i can do it without a intervention.  This arrangment being said intervention....I hope.

    Will decide in next day or so but it will either be taking the offer or taking 6 months or more away from online.

    Again, thanks for all the advice.
  • edited October 2011
    dw about BRM its over-rated just take me for an example i have no brm and i am well i will leave it at that lol

    good luck with trying to be stricter with online poker although like most i would say its better off to do it with your own £££ as surely realistically you would more stricter with your money then a guy who is offering to put you in every main event for X amount of time but what is stopping you from playing cash/stts what ever other than this guy saying i only want you playing 8pm tourneys because if you have no control over what you do with your money surely you aren't going to be able to discipline yourself in to listening to what someone else has said just for the fact they have put you in to what you may or may not want ?
  • edited October 2011
    In Response to Re: Is it wise to be backed and profit share with a friend?:
    dw about BRM its over-rated just take me for an example i have no brm and i am well i will leave it at that lol good luck with trying to be stricter with online poker although like most i would say its better off to do it with your own £££ as surely realistically you would more stricter with your money then a guy who is offering to put you in every main event for X amount of time but what is stopping you from playing cash/stts what ever other than this guy saying i only want you playing 8pm tourneys because if you have no control over what you do with your money surely you aren't going to be able to discipline yourself in to listening to what someone else has said just for the fact they have put you in to what you may or may not want ?
    Posted by delaney09

    Just to be clear I am hugely diciplined with my offline BR.  Its my online BR that I perma flame.  Am not hugely strong @ online cash, I dont read well enough and I dont really enjoy it.

    I think the thing that intrests me is having someone to be answerable to.  He and I travel and play usually at least once a week.  So it would be simple enough to go over +/-'s weekly,also to know that I would be getting a telling off if I stepped out of line.  Not in terms of perfomance in Games, only in terms of selection of games.

    I do think that would be useful to me, as I do very very silly things habitually, only answerable to myself.  Perhaps having a man on my back would give me the mental gear to take my foot off the gas in terms of flaming.  This is the aspect that I think truly would be useful to me.

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