Overpair to flop... should I give up?

Pysterman

Not many reads on the player, but he does sometimes make minimum 0.08 bets on the flop/turn/river into largish pots.

Feel free to criticise my pre-flop play. I hate playing middle pairs.

Small blind		£0.04	£0.04	£13.33
carravagio	Big blind		£0.08	£0.12	£11.46
	Your hole cards	10 10
xxxx	Raise		£0.16	£0.28	£7.40
jumbo595	Fold
Pysterman	Call		£0.16	£0.44	£7.11
SALSACITY	Fold
rancid	Fold
carravagio	Fold
Flop
		2 4 5
xxxx	Bet		£0.24	£0.68	£7.16
Pysterman	Raise		£0.93	£1.61	£6.18
xxxx	Raise		£1.38	£2.99	£5.78

Dudeskin8

Preflop I honestly am not sure as it's what I'd do as I'm a chicken and also hate it if he shoves over my 3bet, could be better to 3bet purely because he only minraised.

On flop after calling pre I would just call in position and most likely do the same on turn or river, although if he check then bet for value.

When you raise flop it is for value or bluff, 10's is too strong to turn into bluff so it must be for value and hence when he 3bets you on flop you should get it in. However his 3bet is tiny as if it wants calling, I'd be putting him on better than 10's, set/2pr/flopped str8 so you should fold but that means your raise was 'for information' which is terrible as you know.

The_Don90

yea dude im agreeing im re-raising purley because of its a min raise. I want value if i flop a set and going into a 40p pot makes it difficuilt to build a pot.

jakally

In Response to Re: Overpair to flop... should I give up?:

yea dude im agreeing im re-raising purley because of its a min raise. I want value if i flop a set and going into a 40p pot makes it difficuilt to build a pot.
Posted by The_Don90

Surely that's not why we are raising in this spot.

If we feel we need to hit a set to win, then are we behind now?

If yes, then 3 betting is obv. the nut worst line we can take.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Overpair to flop... should I give up?:

In Response to Re: Overpair to flop... should I give up? : Surely that's not why we are raising in this spot. If we feel we need to hit a set to win, then are we behind now? If yes, then 3 betting is obv. the nut worst line we can take.
Posted by jakally

i think what i was trying to say came wrong.

If we're behind when i hit i want to be able to build a pot easier. Also by only flatting 16p people behind start to get better and better odds with any two cards. Which makes our pair weaker.

So im 3 betting for value, to build the pot and to stop any two comming in behind.

jakally

In Response to Re: Overpair to flop... should I give up?:

In Response to Re: Overpair to flop... should I give up? : i think what i was trying to say came wrong. If we're behind when i hit i want to be able to build a pot easier. 
Posted by The_Don90

But in this spot, if we are behind, we are going to get 4 bet a lot, and presumably have to give up.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Overpair to flop... should I give up?:

In Response to Re: Overpair to flop... should I give up? : But in this spot, if we are behind, we are going to get 4 bet a lot, and presumably have to give up.
Posted by jakally

Depends on the size of the 4 bet alot. Min opens are common here. Often they just fold others the click back. So say we make it 48p theyll often make it 72p and we have to call. Now we have a nice little pot. Others theyll often just shove it in easy fold. Again easy fold at £1.28.

Now im not saying 3 bet is 100% right obv its very villian dependant.

rancid

flat pre, no point 3 betting unless he opens wide

flat flop, why are you raising here to be not sure when he fires back - should be raising to get it in

grantorino

flat pre, flat flop. As played if I raise 10s on this board its with intention  of getting it in

dont mind 3b/f pre readless at 8nl either

Pysterman

In Response to Re: Overpair to flop... should I give up?:

why are you raising here to be not sure when he fires back - should be raising to get it in
Posted by rancid

My rationale (feel free to criticise).

I did in fact re-raise with the intention of getting it in. I figured that a lot of the time in this situation (readless at NL8) I would be ahead here, with the player maybe having a rag ace giving them one pair with a gut shot straight draw.

I guess my thread was querying whether I overplayed the tens and whether, at this level, I am beat more often than I'm ahead here.

My opponent raised pre, so I thought there was a good chance he had an Ace and was chasing the straight, so I re-raised to protect my hand and give him the wrong price to chase. When I was re-raised again I figured there was no point in flatting, it was just a question of whether I thought I was more likely to be ahead (and shove) or behind (fold). I'd always figured I was more likely ahead, so I shoved.

Pysterman

Can I also ask...?

A lot of you suggest flatting the flop. What is the rationale behind this?

He could have hit absolutely nothing and be playing a standard c-bet. There is a very good chance I am ahead here. By flatting, am I not giving him cheap cards to hit a straight or an overpair to my tens? Also, by flatting, I am gaining no information about the potential strength of his hand.

Just wondering. Still learning.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Overpair to flop... should I give up?:

Can I also ask...? A lot of you suggest flatting the flop. What is the rationale behind this? He could have hit absolutely nothing and be playing a standard c-bet. There is a very good chance I am ahead here. By flatting, am I not giving him cheap cards to hit a straight or an overpair to my tens? Also, by flatting, I am gaining no information about the potential strength of his hand. Just wondering. Still learning.
Posted by Pysterman

When we bet we want worse hands to call provided we are not giving them correct odds to hit

You likely have the best hand here, so if you raise its because you beat the range that continues. If you are not sure you beat the range that continues flatting is better, it keeps weaker hands in and allows him keep bluffing with air. We have less info about his range, but we can be pretty sure its wider than if we raise

silentbob

I must admit I don't like flatting pre in this spot. Personally I'm making it 48p. If he 4b big then I think you can get away pre. Just calling with 10's here seems too passive for me personally. Smaller pairs, no problem.

As played I think flatting the flop is probably the best option unless you fully intend to shove (which you did).

rancid

If your raising flop to charge them to draw, what happens if there not drawing.
If there beating you they will call or raise, if they have worse they will likely fold.

If you raise pre, do you really want them to fold, surely you want them to call with worse OOP.


By flatting pre you keep in worse, which is good for you. Yes they may outdraw you but you could raise and they call and still outdraw you () It's a constant dilema, i think the raise  for value/protection is a good line here on the flop and I can't say it's bad but most of the time you may be taking yourself to value town.


If oppo is min raising a lot and opens wide then 3 bet all day