Hero call - FAIL. / Hero call - WIN :(

DOHHHHHHH

FAIL

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Ice_Tiger	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£36.72
VINEY73	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£25.50
	Your hole cards	9 J
Liberachi7	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£1.20	£1.65	£40.88
xxx	Raise		£3.90	£5.55	£25.65
Ice_Tiger	Fold
VINEY73	Fold
DOHHHHHHH	Raise		£7.80	£13.35	£33.08
xxx	All-in		£25.65	£39.00	£0.00
DOHHHHHHH	Call		£20.55	£59.55	£12.53
DOHHHHHHH	Show	9 J
xxx	Show	4 5
Flop
		6 A 5
Turn
		6
River
		6
xxx	Win	Full House, 6s and 5s	£57.75		£57.75

WIN

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceh-star Small blind  £0.15 £0.15 £14.71 VINEY73 Big blind  £0.30 £0.45 £97.18 xxxBig blind  £0.30 £0.75 £29.70   Your hole cards 7 2       frapstar Fold     xxxCheck     liamboi11 Raise  £1.20 £1.95 £41.62 DOHHHHHHH Raise  £4.50 £6.45 £42.84 h-star Fold     VINEY73 Fold     xxx Call  £4.20 £10.65 £25.50 liamboi11 Fold     Flop    4 4 K       xxx Bet  £10.65 £21.30 £14.85 DOHHHHHHH All-in  £42.84 £64.14 £0.00 xxxAll-in  £14.85 £78.99 £0.00 DOHHHHHHH Unmatched bet  £17.34 £61.65 £17.34 xxxShow Q 7    DOHHHHHHH Show 7 2    Turn    Q       River    J       XXXWin Two Pairs, Queens and 4s £59.85  £59.85

PiAnOpLaYa

surely its fail / fail as you lost both?

DOHHHHHHH

Well my hero call failed, his hero call won. 

oijoicjnmwqincjlqnwjdcnqwnchkbwhcbgbc

debdobs_67

Dohhh try raising or 3bettin when ya actually have a hand , ya may even win one

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
debdobs_67	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£11.03
metaflop	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£18.57
	Your hole cards	A A
icklemonky	Raise		£0.30	£0.45	£13.78
Phil89	Call		£0.30	£0.75	£9.44
MarkYou	Fold
debdobs_67	Raise		£1.40	£2.15	£9.63
metaflop	Fold
icklemonky	Raise		£4.00	£6.15	£9.78
Phil89	Fold
debdobs_67	All-in		£9.63	£15.78	£0.00
icklemonky	All-in		£9.78	£25.56	£0.00
icklemonky	Unmatched bet		£3.00	£22.56	£3.00
debdobs_67	Show	A A
icklemonky	Show	K K
Flop
		5 4 2
Turn
		Q
River
		10
debdobs_67	Win	Pair of Aces	£21.16		£21.16

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scotty77

you really are king of the advert

DOHHHHHHH

Gotta get summat out of it!

pod1

sarchi and sarchi could learn a thing or to

rancid

Dohhh are you a spin doctor )

NColley

4 5 and j 9, 7 2 and Q 7.

Teh two players in this hand are erm..... special kinds of players

bolly580

are you okay?

Broken?

hows your padded cell?

whats the nurse bringing you for dinner today?

DOHHHHHHH

Playing today, so bumping to remind everyone how I play

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Hero call - FAIL. / Hero call - WIN :

Playing today, so bumping to r emind  ev eryon e how I play
Posted by DOHHHHHHH

Funny you say this as all I could think as I read the 2 hands was how bad your table image must have been

BigRonnieC

I don't know when or why hero calls became glorified, but they should be an extreme rarity, used when you have a particular read or to take charge of a table. The main purpose of them eludes me... if you have a good instinct/want to out somebody, a hero call is a good stamp of authority that you have their number.

To put it in context, start of 250gtd yday, at 10/20 blinds, this was the sort of aggro on my table:

So had people overbetting, shoving and calling with bottom pair (and winning). Obviously, making a hero call is risky as you can dump your stack or fold on a river with Q high fairly sure the other guy has worse but with no equity to call. However, after folding 2 or 3 hands on the flop to ridiculous bets, time came to make a stand.. I lost as many chips as I gained making hero calls.

Hand History #431060503 (19:07 29/10/2011)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Brookesy	Small blind		10.00	10.00	1900.00
NEPHILIM	Big blind		20.00	30.00	2620.00
	Your hole cards	Q A
stuart771	Call		20.00	50.00	1250.00
stits204	Fold
BigRonnieC	Call		20.00	70.00	1970.00
Brookesy	Call		10.00	80.00	1890.00
NEPHILIM	Raise		100.00	180.00	2520.00
stuart771	Call		100.00	280.00	1150.00
BigRonnieC	Call		100.00	380.00	1870.00
Brookesy	Fold
Flop
		5 4 3
NEPHILIM	Bet		285.00	665.00	2235.00
stuart771	Call		285.00	950.00	865.00
BigRonnieC	Call		285.00	1235.00	1585.00
Turn
		4
NEPHILIM	Bet		617.50	1852.50	1617.50
stuart771	All-in		865.00	2717.50	0.00
BigRonnieC	Fold
NEPHILIM	Call		247.50	2965.00	1370.00
NEPHILIM	Show	8 Q
stuart771	Show	7 3
River
		J
stuart771	Win	Two Pairs, 4s and 3s	2965.00		2965.00

A hero call is a bit of a shot in the dark and, worst of all, you are reacting and therefore not acting with authority in the hand. I think it is far more effective to concede to a good bluff and, when you have a good read, use it to bluff where you have 2 chances of winning the pot - by making them fold or (unlikely) having the best hand:

Hand History #431087403 (20:09 29/10/2011)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
tippett07	Small blind		50.00	50.00	11107.50
BigRonnieC	Big blind		100.00	150.00	6105.00
	Your hole cards	9 A
ANGELKEY	Fold
SMOKINJOE	Fold
mel1961	Fold
tippett07	Raise		150.00	300.00	10957.50
BigRonnieC	Call		100.00	400.00	6005.00
Flop
		6 4 5
tippett07	Bet		100.00	500.00	10857.50
BigRonnieC	Call		100.00	600.00	5905.00
Turn
		3
tippett07	Bet		100.00	700.00	10757.50
BigRonnieC	Raise		700.00	1400.00	5205.00
tippett07	Call		600.00	2000.00	10157.50
River
		Q
tippett07	Check
BigRonnieC	Bet		1500.00	3500.00	3705.00
tippett07	Fold
BigRonnieC	Show	9 A
BigRonnieC	Win		2000.00		5705.00
BigRonnieC	Return		1500.00	0.00	7205.00

Basically, outside of the meta game or a certain read, hero calls serve little purpose and provide a poor risk/benefit ratio - a bluff is more effective both to win a hand and to convey authority to opponents.

There is no shame in being bluffed sometimes!

Lambert180

Yeah apart from the fact that serious players make ALOT of notes on how people play and so when you get people making these kind of calls, it makes them think twice about bluffing with air against you next time. If you play a completely textbook game, then you will become very predictable and open yourself up to being bluffed off alot of pots...

A hero call doesn't have to be with Ahigh etc, it could be 2nd pair but you really think you're still ahead, or a double paired board like KK997 and he's played it like he's representing the house but you have 1010 and think he bluffs this often enough to make a call worth it.

BigRonnieC

In Response to Re: Hero call - FAIL. / Hero call - WIN :

Yeah apart from the fact that serious players make ALOT of notes on how people play and so when you get people making these kind of calls, it makes them think twice about bluffing with air against you next time. If you play a completely textbook game, then you will become very predictable and open yourself up to being bluffed off alot of pots... A hero call doesn't have to be with Ahigh etc, it could be 2nd pair but you really think you're still ahead, or a double paired board like KK997 and he's played it like he's representing the house but you have 1010 and think he bluffs this often enough to make a call worth it.
Posted by Lambert180

Like this?

Hand History #431068826 (19:26 29/10/2011)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
gunn01651	Small blind		20.00	20.00	1457.50
stits204	Big blind		40.00	60.00	2055.00
	Your hole cards	10 10
BigRonnieC	Raise		120.00	180.00	3280.00
Brookesy	Fold
everton889	Fold
carbo1986	Call		120.00	300.00	7135.00
gunn01651	Fold
stits204	Fold
Flop
		6 K 2
BigRonnieC	Bet		225.00	525.00	3055.00
carbo1986	Call		225.00	750.00	6910.00
Turn
		3
BigRonnieC	Check
carbo1986	Bet		375.00	1125.00	6535.00
BigRonnieC	Call		375.00	1500.00	2680.00
River
		J
BigRonnieC	Check
carbo1986	Bet		750.00	2250.00	5785.00
BigRonnieC	Call		750.00	3000.00	1930.00
carbo1986	Show	5 10
BigRonnieC	Show	10 10
BigRonnieC	Win	Pair of 10s	3000.00		4930.00

Wouldn't call it so much a hero call as disbelieving bettor here because of past form.

Edit: Not a house but calling off half stack with 10 10 when villain betting to rep the K on flop with 3 barrels. He bluffed and overbet weak hands far too often, so while an awkward position, based on read of villain rather than blind instinct as to what he might be holding.

Lambert180

Well yeah I don't think it's ever a good idea making calls on 'blind instinct'. Hero calls definitely need to be as a result of lots of reads on the player and not just 'I had a feeling'. This might work on odd occasions and you might think oh well I was right to do it, but long term you can only do it with very good reads.