Awful spot how do we play the turn?

waynec

Dont have any reads on XX but seems a solid steady player

This is an awful spot and cant see how I am ahead here, how would you suggest to play the turn?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
Patito	Small blind		£0.15	£0.15	£33.93
XX	Big blind		£0.30	£0.45	£19.67
	Your hole cards	J A
waynec	Raise		£1.20	£1.65	£34.25
haidyboy	Fold
AJ_Rockets	Fold
tokyo	Fold
Patito	Fold
XX	Call		£0.90	£2.55	£18.77
Flop
		8 9 A
XX	Check
waynec	Bet		£1.91	£4.46	£32.34
XX	Call		£1.91	£6.37	£16.86
Turn
		9
xx	Check
waynec	???

AMYBR

Why is this an awful spot?

We are never going to know where we are in the hand unless we bet.

We can opt for pot control, but there are alot of worse river cards.

Opponent has checked, he is either sandbagging or doesnt like it.  A bet here will save us money on river.

Turn isnt a definatevely bad card.  Do we go to turn with no more info, letting every draw have the chance to get there for free?

I bet somewhere between 4.2 and 4.8.  Worse case scenario we call a similar bet on brick river from behind. 

IDONKCALLU

i would check here for pot control y did he call the flop the flush got there on the turn and he could easily have a 9 here so i would check for pot control and u have showdown value 

waynec

In Response to Re: Awful spot how do we play the turn?:

Why is this an awful spot? We are never going to know where we are in the hand unless we bet. We can opt for pot control, but there are alot of worse river cards. Opponent has checked, he is either sandbagging or doesnt like it.  A bet here will save us money on river. Turn isnt a definatevely bad card.  Do we go to turn with no more info, letting every draw have the chance to get there for free? I bet somewhere between 4.2 and 4.8.  Worse case scenario we call a similar bet on brick river from behind. 
Posted by AMYBR

What has he called my flop bet with, I really dont think fresh air odds on could be a flush draw maybe A 8/9 which puts me way behind on the turn that is my awful spot! TBH if he had bet the turn I would folded and the check worries me just as much.

waynec

In Response to Re: Awful spot how do we play the turn?:

i would check here for pot control y did he call the flop the flush got there on the turn and he could easily have a 9 here so i would check for pot control and u have showdown value 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

I like this suggested play because A9 worries me more than the flush draw.

IDONKCALLU

if u bet the turn here in my view u are only getting called by a hand that beats u and when u check the turn u kinda disguising your ace but if it bricks on the river no diamond or a low card i am check calling mode 

AMYBR

So you would be more inclined to worry about a made flush or 9's full than a weaker A or straight draw?

My initial point being: what do we do on river when 2s or utter brick falls?  Or perhaps our hand becomes stronger?

I'd rather b/f here than c/c.  Mainly as we are able to determine our own loss, and the b/f more clearly defines opponents range.

I dont hate the check behind, but we do give opponent every opportunity to get there for free.  If we fire turn and get raised I dont mind a fold.  Especially as we are going to have to station brick rivers, or sigh fold all filler rivers when we let opponent get there for free.

waynec

In Response to Re: Awful spot how do we play the turn?:

So you would be more inclined to worry about a made flush or 9's full than a weaker A or straight draw? My initial point being: what do we do on river when 2s or utter brick falls?  Or perhaps our hand becomes stronger? I'd rather b/f here than c/c.  Mainly as we are able to determine our own loss, and the b/f more clearly defines opponents range. I dont hate the check behind, but we do give opponent every opportunity to get there for free.  If we fire turn and get raised I dont mind a fold.  Especially as we are going to have to station brick rivers, or sigh fold all filler rivers when we let opponent get there for free.
Posted by AMYBR

Ok I think your points are valid as agression answers questions and win pots, but I think we need to take into consideration we only have £3ish invested and very few outs as the chances we are behind here is great so if we do our maths any further bet is a bad investment which is why I liked the post about pot control here?

Poker_Fail

Iwould opt for a check, then call if they bet river (Unless maybe another diamond).

IMO, If you bet there's not reay any hand worse than yours calling, If you check they might bluff the river.

AMYBR

If the board wasnt so wet I 'd agree with the above.  But:

A) there are so many bad rivers that put us behind if we arent already, making a sigh fold

We are likely to call any reasonable river lead on a brick. 

So if we are calling river brick, we may aswell charge opponent for turn to sigh fold river IP.

Yes Pot control is an option, one I would take on boards where our hand is less vulnerable.  But I suspect opponent has around 30% equity here.

We are likely to station a vb on river vs a 9 or flush here (when bricking), so prefer to charge turn when not behind.

We've seen no resistance in this pot.  Opponent has binked turn or your ahead, but vulnerable @ river. If your concerned enough to be in c/c mode, its no issue to vb turn to c/f river.

There is alsoi the issue that checking back turn will likely stimulate him leading river.  If you didnt know where you were on turn, you definately wont on river, with so many bad cards opting to fall.

EvilPingu

Check behind and call any non-diamond river card if the bet is small enough, I reckon. Keeping the pot small means that if he's ahead, he can't put in much of a value bet on the river, so you'd probably lose as little as possible that way. He's not folding much on the turn IMO, anything he does fold is likely behind anyway.

If he's drawing, he's probably not folding on the turn unless your bet is fairly substantial, and by checking you give him the chance to bluff the river if his hand doesn't improve. By checking the turn here, you're losing as little as possible, and giving yourself a chance of winning a bigger pot if he bets the river with either a missed draw or a weaker ace, or something like that.

Oh, and if you hit an ace on the river...payday

waynec

Thanks guys for the imput, I did elect to check and another Dia appeared it was a 1/4 pot bet he hit me with as if he was looking for a reraise so suspected a FH.... made no odds if he had FH/flush/trips/set it was an easy fold but had doubts about my turn check hence my post

grantorino

In Response to Re: Awful spot how do we play the turn?:

Why is this an awful spot? We are never going to know where we are in the hand unless we bet. We can opt for pot control, but there are alot of worse river cards. Opponent has checked, he is either sandbagging or doesnt like it.  A bet here will save us money on river. Turn isnt a definatevely bad card.  Do we go to turn with no more info, letting every draw have the chance to get there for free? I bet somewhere between 4.2 and 4.8.  Worse case scenario we call a similar bet on brick river from behind. 
Posted by AMYBR

How would that save us money compared to checking behind?

I think checking turn is much better than betting because:
not many worse hands call
no hands we want to fold ever fold
if he raises we may fold best hand (this isnt usually a good reason but when the value side of the bet is so thin I would hate to be raised off it)

He wont have many one diamond hands that love a 4th diamond except maybe A with a big diamond which beats us anyway so I dont see that much reason to protect. Sure he'll get there sometimes but thats life