8NL - Did I play this ok?

Lambert180

I wasn't sure if I'm just being gutted at the fact I lost a 225BB stack in 1 hand. Did I play this horribly, I felt like it was the only way to play it as I wasn't willing to fold on that flop. I'd really appreciate thoughts please.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
SILKY1978	Small blind		£0.04	£0.04	£21.01
neil1970	Big blind		£0.08	£0.12	£5.42
	Your hole cards	10 K
badtoad	Fold
ncfcboy	Fold
Lambert180	Raise		£0.24	£0.36	£18.20
SILKY1978	Raise		£0.64	£1.00	£20.37
neil1970	Fold
Lambert180	Call		£0.44	£1.44	£17.76
Flop
		K 5 2
SILKY1978	Bet		£1.08	£2.52	£19.29
Lambert180	Raise		£2.16	£4.68	£15.60
SILKY1978	Raise		£5.40	£10.08	£13.89
Lambert180	All-in		£15.60	£25.68	£0.00
SILKY1978	Call		£11.28	£36.96	£2.61
SILKY1978	Show	K A
Lambert180	Show	10 K
Turn
		4
River
		5
SILKY1978	Win	Two Pairs, Kings and 5s	£35.56		£38.17

IDONKCALLU

i think i would of just called the flop bet u are strong here but if the villain just done a c-bet with anything u want him to keep betting turn and river but as played just unlucky pal 

rancid

You could fold pre
But now you have the flop you wanted, stick it in

You could pot control IP, no scare cards for you so.... probably calling down would be the better line this deep and given the fact that oppo is leading with a thin value range you at best flipping

Dudeskin8

Snap fold pre for me, can't see many players 3betting out of blinds with a hand you beat and like here take away the flush draw what do you do when he bets 3 streets and you only have top pair average kicker ?

On flop I just call IP and just call down, when you raise you take away the bluffs.

gracie24

I think with your kicker you are only going to win with a flush and I would have called the bet to control the pot rather than risk all on a flush draw.

Lay_ItDown

In Response to Re: 8NL - Did I play this ok?:

Snap fold pre for me, can't see many players 3betting out of blinds with a hand you beat and like here take away the flush draw what do you do when he bets 3 streets and you only have top pair average kicker ? On flop I just call IP and just call down, when you raise you take away the bluffs.
Posted by Dudeskin8

I don't agree with folding pre, this deep with suited broadway cards to a standard 3bet, even in early position - That's a bonus - You have position.

You flopped the dream for that hand. Obiously 10 high with the flush draw is better but you can't ask for more.

Now on the flop, when he 4bets you to 1/3 of your stack it's pretty obvious at this point he has AK or AA.. But you're actually a statistical favourite at this point with 2 streets to come, even when you know he has A,K or AA.

So you played the hand well and got unlucky.

3/5 times you will win these types of hand.

rancid

I don’t think your favourite , your 48% at best.

AMYBR

Once we opt to flat the 3bet IP and get this flop we have to be comfortable getting it in.

rancid

In Response to Re: 8NL - Did I play this ok?:

Once we opt to flat the 3bet IP and get this flop we have to be comfortable getting it in.
Posted by AMYBR

Depends how happy you feel about getting 250 bigs across the line with no FE and a flip )

pod1

what range can you put him on 3betting pre. does ak qk kk aa fall into it. on the flop your descision to 3 bet him and he goes over the top must bring these hands more into play. do you feel your ahead at this point?? personally i am flatting his 4 bet and try and control from here. probably folding to a big bet on a non spade turn.. im not saying this is the best way to play it but its the way i woulda played the hand.

grantorino

pre is ok I think if you think you can outplay him postflop
 
c/c flop, when you raise you usually fold almost all worse and only get called by better. Once you raise you are never doing anything other than stacking

Lambert180

I appreciate most of the thoughts posted here. In answer to some people said it, I'm happy to flat his 3bet pre because we're both fairly deep, I'm IP and I'm playing it for the implied odds of flopping strongly and stacking him.

I also believe I do have some FE Rancid even if it's not loads. Think of it from his point of view, you bet 3/4pot on the flop, get min-reraised, you 3bet, and then he 4bet jams, can you honestly be that confident you're ahead with JUST 1 pair?? Think of all the hands I raise the button with when I'm this deep and then would just flat call IP to a 3bet... definitely 5s and 2s, I could also do this with AA/KK, and ALOT of suited connecters.

I know we can't change their play, we can only change our own, but do you think he was right to call there? If I was him, I'd definitely be thinking I was behind or at best flipping and it's one thing for me to shove and possibly be flipping but it's different to call to be flipping??

rancid

When you raise the flop bet what hands do you expect oppo to fold

oppo has 3 bet pre and leads flop, whats oppo' range ? 

If he is leading all his 3 bet value range then oppo ain't folding

You raising is saying lets get it in, you only fold out worse hands imo so why raise because your not getting any good folds unless oppo's range included KQ/KJ/

bolly580

snap fold pre flop as played, this is your dream flop no way you can fold and if another spade comes you probably miss value, right to get it in on flop but this is what happens when you call 8X raises pre with a junk hand.

hope you learn your lesson sir

Lambert180

In Response to Re: 8NL - Did I play this ok?:

When you raise the flop bet what hands do you expect oppo to fold oppo has 3 bet pre and leads flop, whats oppo' range ?  If he is leading all his 3 bet value range then oppo ain't folding You raising is saying lets get it in, you only fold out worse hands imo so why raise because your not getting any good folds unless oppo's range included KQ/KJ/
Posted by rancid

I'm not raising the flop to fold out hands, I'm betting it for value on a board where I am happy to get all my money in on. This persons 3betting range pre isn't THAT narrow, and that's probably even more true in hands against me. I can definitely see them 3 betting with AQ,AJ,QQ,JJ,TT (all of which I'm beating) at least and on that board and against me, they're gonna c-bet it almost 100% of the time, so leading out when I've called his 3bet IP is not a definite show of strength. I could have just called the flop to see if the turn is a spade but as Bolly said, if I turn the spade, there's no way I'm gonna get him to put his stack in, so once I've seen this flop, I am happy to get it all in pre (providing I get it in first lol).

I was starting this thread more to see if I am wrong to be wanting to get it all in pre with this hand on this flop. I haven't stoved it yet (I have been meaning to) but I suspect that on the flop, it's almost a flip with my flush draw and three 10s to make 2pr, so with the added fact that I think I do have some FE here, I think it does make it ok. Frankly I'm shocked he happy calling off for like 250BBs with just TPTK

debdobs_67

Raise pre fine , defo fold to the 3 bet

Lambert180

Even this deep to a pretty small 3bet, when I'm IP, and am intending to flop big or get rid??

Dudeskin8

I wrote it earlier but I'll do so again, what do you do when flop is bone dry K34 rainbow and he bets, you call right can't really fold, then he bets blank turn you call again, then river blank you have to call again.

This is what will happen MOST times, obvz here you flop probz best you can hope for apart from 2pr so in long run I personally feel it's not great, if anything I'd rather you were the one 3betting w/K10s as you have betting lead and also control.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: 8NL - Did I play this ok?:

I wrote it earlier but I'll do so again, what do you do when flop is bone dry K34 rainbow and he bets, you call right can't really fold, then he bets blank turn you call again, then river blank you have to call again. This is what will happen MOST times, obvz here you flop probz best you can hope for apart from 2pr so in long run I personally feel it's not great, if anything I'd rather you were the one 3betting w/K10s as you have betting lead and also control.
Posted by Dudeskin8

+1 , this post says it all

IDONKCALLU

hi lambert and dudeskin im proud to say im a tpt member now  

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: 8NL - Did I play this ok?:

hi lambert and dudeskin im proud to say im a tpt member now  
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Nice one mate, now get a yaself a new avatar !

rancid

In Response to Re: 8NL - Did I play this ok?:

In Response to Re: 8NL - Did I play this ok? : I'm not raising the flop to fold out hands, I'm betting it for value on a board where I am happy to get all my money in on. This persons 3betting range pre isn't THAT narrow, and that's probably even more true in hands against me. I can definitely see them 3 betting with AQ,AJ,QQ,JJ,TT (all of which I'm beating) at least and on that board and against me, they're gonna c-bet it almost 100% of the time, so leading out when I've called his 3bet IP is not a definite show of strength. I could have just called the flop to see if the turn is a spade but as Bolly said, if I turn the spade, there's no way I'm gonna get him to put his stack in, so once I've seen this flop, I am happy to get it all in pre (providing I get it in first lol). I was starting this thread more to see if I am wrong to be wanting to get it all in pre with this hand on this flop. I haven't stoved it yet (I have been meaning to) but I suspect that on the flop, it's almost a flip with my flush draw and three 10s to make 2pr, so with the added fact that I think I do have some FE here, I think it does make it ok. Frankly I'm shocked he happy calling off for like 250BBs with just TPTK
Posted by Lambert180

By raising flop you are folding out hands that you beat that would 3 bet and lead flop, you don't want worse to fold. I understand your raising for value but what hands give you action here that you beat?
Hands that call or raise your value raise are hands that your flipping with.

You seem happy to get it in on a flip so why should oppo fold AK, would you fold AK if thr roles are reversed
Like I said if your happy getting 250 bb's in on a flip then what's the problem ?

btw the call pre is fine ip this deep

grantorino

In Response to Re: 8NL - Did I play this ok?:

I appreciate most of the thoughts posted here. In answer to some people said it, I'm happy to flat his 3bet pre because we're both fairly deep, I'm IP and I'm playing it for the implied odds of flopping strongly and stacking him. I also believe I do have some FE Rancid even if it's not loads. Think of it from his point of view, you bet 3/4pot on the flop, get min-reraised, you 3bet, and then he 4bet jams, can you honestly be that confident you're ahead with JUST 1 pair?? Think of all the hands I raise the button with when I'm this deep and then would just flat call IP to a 3bet... definitely 5s and 2s, I could also do this with AA/KK, and ALOT of suited connecters. I know we can't change their play, we can only change our own, but do you think he was right to call there? If I was him, I'd definitely be thinking I was behind or at best flipping and it's one thing for me to shove and possibly be flipping but it's different to call to be flipping??
Posted by Lambert180

There are only 4 1 pair hands that beat you. AA,AK,KQ,KJ. I doubt many villains fold AA or AK on this flop at this level even this deep. KQ and KJ wont even be in their 3betting range pre a lot of the time, if they are they prob dont fold to a minraise on the flop. Once he 3bets flop he prob shouldnt ever fold top pair when you shove. Also if you are looking for fold equity make your first raise on flop bigger

So, assuming villain doesnt fold 2pair + our fold equity is pretty limited imo, as he wont fold the 1 pair hands that beat you enough. There may be some value in raising if he wont put down TT-QQ, he' ll also prob continue with nfd. But usually raising folds most of the range we beat and hands that beat us rarely fold. So why raise?

Yes if we flat we wont stack villain usually this deep. Getting it in is prob going to be only marginally +EV when called, when he folds we have best hand anyway. We should be able to call more profitably imo ip against a cbetting range we do quite well against and lots of outs when we are behind

Lambert180

Is my thinking wrong here but I thought that in cash, if you're bankrolled properly, then you can play these marginal edges because you will win long term.

For instance if I'm heads up and the other guy shoves, I have QQ and hypnothetically I know for a fact he 100% has AK then I'm gonna call that 1000 times in a row, because that marginal edge will be profitable long term.

So surely if it's +EV and you're bankrolled correctly then it's always good (assuming it's the most +EV way of playing it)

grantorino

In Response to Re: 8NL - Did I play this ok?:

Is my thinking wrong here but I thought that in cash, if you're bankrolled properly, then you can play these marginal edges because you will win long term. For instance if I'm heads up and the other guy shoves, I have QQ and hypnothetically I know for a fact he 100% has AK then I'm gonna call that 1000 times in a row, because that marginal edge will be profitable long term. So surely if it's +EV and you're bankrolled correctly then it's always good (assuming it's the most +EV way of playing it)
Posted by Lambert180

This is what the question is. At a glance I think shoving is prob marginally profitable but I think calling is prob going to be more profitable in this spot, given that raising prob wont acheive anything we want it to. Havent done any numbers or anything so could be wrong

Its a bit like saying openshoving AA 100bb deep is good because its +EV. Obv this situation is far less clearcut, but you look for the line which maximises your EV