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QQ in trouble your thoughts please

waynecwaynec
edited December 2011 in The Poker Clinic
XX TAG no real reads but think he had something, I did not want to shove to reraise so called and took it from there.
Not sure if he was defending his blind as I had raised a good number of buttons ( of course always with a hand), when the K hit I was prepared to call him down but the A on the turn was the last card I wanted to see. I think the fold was correct, not sure about pre flop and the flop should I have been more aggresive?


PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
xxSmall blind £0.10£0.10£15.65
SILKY1978Big blind £0.20£0.30£33.61
 Your hole cards
  • Q
  • Q
   
SildenafilFold    
DarkforceFold    
waynecRaise £0.80£1.10£18.47
xxRaise £1.30£2.40£14.35
SILKY1978Fold    
waynecCall £0.60£3.00£17.87
Flop
  
  • K
  • 10
  • 5
   
xxBet £0.80£3.80£13.55
waynecCall £0.80£4.60£17.07
Turn
  
  • A
   
xxBet £2.20£6.80£11.35
waynecFold    
xxMuck    
xxWin £4.37 £15.72
xxReturn £2.20£0.23£17.92
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Comments

  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited December 2011
    easy fold yeah i would call pre aswell under reps ya hand just a bad board to continue :)
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  • DOHHHHHHHDOHHHHHHH
    edited December 2011
    In Response to QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    XX TAG no real reads but think he had something, I did not want to shove to reraise so called and took it from there. Not sure if he was defending his blind as I had raised a good number of buttons ( of course always with a hand), when the K hit I was prepared to call him down but the A on the turn was the last card I wanted to see. I think the fold was correct, not sure about pre flop and the flop should I have been more aggresive? 
    Posted by waynec
    He did make it kinda obvious! ;)

    wp.


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  • rancidrancid
    edited December 2011
    Why no 4 bet, are we looking for a none A or K high fop ?
    If so why are we not happy getting it in pre v AK/JJ
    If oppo has AA/KK then we going broke anyway ?

    These situations bug me :()

    Did oppo have set of 10's )

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  • waynecwaynec
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    Why no 4 bet, are we looking for a none A or K high fop ? If so why are we not happy getting it in pre v AK/JJ If oppo has AA/KK then we going broke anyway ? These situations bug me :() Did oppo have set of 10's )
    Posted by rancid
    A 4 bet did cross my mind but for some reasons heard alarm bells, sometimes I just go with my gut feelings but on reviewing my lack of aggression did stand out.
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  • huuuuumehuuuuume
    edited December 2011

    as you're on the button and you have already mentioned that you are raising your button regularly you have to 4 bet here.  as you are raising position a lot your perceived range should be fairly wide so therefore his 3 bet range is wider than just AA and KK.  also even if he flats your 4 bet you are in control of the hand and in position which is ideal. 

    as played fold turn looks fine but not sure why you're not looking to build a bigger pot with a big hand like QQ

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  • jugglegeekjugglegeek
    edited December 2011
    I don't see why you didn't four-bet. You have the 3rd best possible hand pre flop and to assume you are behind just because the small blind has clicked it back is folly surely, plus the fact that he is only 75BBs deep. I say four bet to £4 with the aim to get it all in pre-flop. If he calls then you are in possition with the betting initiative and if he donks you on a scary flop only then should you consider folding.

    As played you are beat and has lost the minimum but the villian could have a hand as weak as AJ at this point and would probably have laid down about two thirds of his range to a four bet.
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  • rancidrancid
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    I don't see why you didn't four-bet. You have the 3rd best possible hand pre flop and to assume you are behind just because the small blind has clicked it back is folly surely, plus the fact that he is only 75BBs deep. I say four bet to £4 with the aim to get it all in pre-flop. If he calls then you are in possition with the betting initiative and if he donks you on a scary flop only then should you consider folding. As played you are beat and has lost the minimum but the villian could have a hand as weak as AJ at this point and would probably have laid down about two thirds of his range to a four bet.
    Posted by jugglegeek
    We are not 4 bet bluffing though are we, so we want AJ AIPR don't we ?

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  • waynecwaynec
    edited December 2011
    OK guys thanks for the comments, I have now to feel that my lack of a 4 bet was a mistake.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    as you're on the button and you have already mentioned that you are raising your button regularly you have to 4 bet here.  as you are raising position a lot your perceived range should be fairly wide so therefore his 3 bet range is wider than just AA and KK.  also even if he flats your 4 bet you are in control of the hand and in position which is ideal.  as played fold turn looks fine but not sure why you're not looking to build a bigger pot with a big hand like QQ
    Posted by huuuuume
    I prob 4b/c here, but even if he 3bets wider than KK that doesnt mean 4betting is better. Usually he never folds better so we should only raise if we think he calls with worse hands. Calling also disguises our hand and is a valid option ip imo

    The most important thing to consider when 4betting is his calling/5betting range. How likely he is to put more in postflop unimproved with the weaker part of his range that folds to a 4bet also is important. If this guy 3b/f stuff like AQ, JJ, TT (he shouldnt, its just an example) then calling is better than raising. Overall I would be usually 4betting here but it depends on dynamic and villain
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  • jugglegeekjugglegeek
    edited December 2011
    yeah but my point is that he is now losing to AJ, A hand that would have gone in the muck pre-flop or on the flop had he 4-bet.
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please : I prob 4b/c here, but even if he 3bets wider than KK that doesnt mean 4betting is better. Usually he never folds better so we should only raise if we think he calls with worse hands. Calling also disguises our hand and is a valid option ip imo The most important thing to consider when 4betting is his calling/5betting range. How likely he is to put more in postflop unimproved with the weaker part of his range that folds to a 4bet also is important. If this guy 3b/f stuff like AQ, JJ, TT (he shouldnt, its just an example) then calling is better than raising. Overall I would be usually 4betting here but it depends on dynamic and villain
    Posted by grantorino

    As I did mention in this post his 3bet did ring alarms, he did get involved in more raised pots than the averageby flat calling but his play in this hand was different the 3 bet was instant. Now did this mean he had decided to 3bet with any hand next time I raised the button or AK, KK, AA

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  • waynecwaynec
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    yeah but my point is that he is now losing to AJ, A hand that would have gone in the muck pre-flop or on the flop had he 4-bet.
    Posted by jugglegeek
    I have to agree my flop play was weak and should have reraised to ask the question about his hand
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    yeah but my point is that he is now losing to AJ, A hand that would have gone in the muck pre-flop or on the flop had he 4-bet.
    Posted by jugglegeek
    He is also now losing to T5o. Should he 4bet to make him fold that too?

    Seriously, think about your reasoning. If we 4bet we want AJ to call
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please : I have to agree my flop play was weak and should have reraised to ask the question about his hand
    Posted by waynec
    No your flop play is not weak at all. Raising flop would be pretty bad unless you think he calls with worse than QQ.

    Dont raise to ask question, especially with limited reads, you generally get the wrong answer. If you reraise pre or raise flop its for value
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  • waynecwaynec
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please : No your flop play is not weak at all. Raising flop would be pretty bad unless you think he calls with worse than QQ. Dont raise to ask question, especially with limited reads, you generally get the wrong answer. If you reraise pre or raise flop its for value
    Posted by grantorino

    OK! lets say the turn was a blank lets say 7h, do I just call him down?
    What about the river if that is a blank he could have TT/JJ and on the river feel he is ahead so I could be facing a good size bet?
    Will I have show down value?
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please:
    In Response to Re: QQ in trouble your thoughts please : OK! lets say the turn was a blank lets say 7h, do I just call him down? What about the river if that is a blank he could have TT/JJ and on the river feel he is ahead so I could be facing a good size bet? Will I have show down value?
    Posted by waynec
    Hard say without any proper indication how aggro he is. But call flop and turn is definitely better than raising flop imo. I sometimes call, sometimes fold a blank turn, prob usually call. Im not usually calling 3 streets readless, standard tag at this level wont triple barrell worse often enough
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