going back to basics!

pod1

ok, after completely embarrassing myself with my last post i think i need some help with my game esp the maths part. i dont know how i got to this stage without losing a lot of money. 

im fairly happy with my mtt game ,live esp. but this cash thing is driving me nuts. i must have something going for me as i have worked up to nl50 twice now but fall down badly at this level.

i think the problem is i play by feel and bet sizing and it gets me so far and then i hit a brick wall. i read grantorino (and a few others ) going through some pretty heavy maths to work out if a call is +ev or not and tbf most of it goes right over my head.so i decided if im ever going to beat nl50 and above i need to go right back to basics and learn the maths.

q 1) how much of the maths do you do whilst playing ,some of it looks like it takes 30 secs +!!. the 77 hand i put up, i was certain i was not fav there and to work out i was would have taken longer than the time allowed.

q2) what % of your cash games is worked out on maths and how much is player dependent lag/tag etc.

perfect example is this hand(its not a boring aa hand or a bad beat post) its about the maths.

my thinking pre was ob to reraise (was this enough ,if not why not). 

post flop : naively i thought if he had a 10 surely you wouldnt raise when acting first, so put him on the q. was it right to reraise here and if so was it the right amount.

when he jammed can i /should i get away from this or is the amount in the pot made this an instant stack off.

like i say, some pretty basic questions here but i think i have to go back to grass roots to grow any further. thanks for any help phil

sweenald14	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£24.94
blackbeltb	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£39.70
	Your hole cards	A A
DN34689	Fold
lkm82	Fold
whirlybabe	Raise		£0.80	£1.10	£42.47
pod1	Raise		£2.00	£3.10	£36.52
sweenald14	Call		£1.90	£5.00	£23.04
blackbeltb	Fold
whirlybabe	Call		£1.20	£6.20	£41.27
Flop
		Q 10 10
sweenald14	Check
whirlybabe	Bet		£6.20	£12.40	£35.07
pod1	Raise		£15.50	£27.90	£21.02
sweenald14	Fold
whirlybabe	All-in		£35.07	£62.97	£0.00
pod1	All-in		£21.02	£83.99	£0.00
whirlybabe	Unmatched bet		£4.75	£79.24	£4.75
whirlybabe	Show	A 10
pod1	Show	A A
Turn
		3
River
		J
whirlybabe	Win	Three 10s	£77.44		£82.19

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rancid

I would say your doing fine, go to a training site and learn the deeper maths

I am sure you know outs/odds etc.... so just learn the rest, the deeper stuff like EV is not done at the table but learning this will give you a better understanding of the game

freechips1

I will try  and help/be honest as much as i can.
This sort of reminds me of a thread i put up about 18 months ago.  At the time i was playing 100nl and had />50 buyin roll, I kept taking shots at £200nl and time after time i would fail.  I put up a thread asking why cant i beat 200nl and one of the 200nl regs came on and gave me a honest answer, "your not good enough"  It was a tad soul destroying but it was the truth and it saved me money.
One of the main reasons is 50nl is far harder than 30nl, why? you get a few pro players playing 50nl and many many semi pro players that you wont find playing lower stakes.
With regards to the maths of poker, do you have pokerstove? if not get it its free.  Have a mess about with it for a hour you might be shocked at how much equity some hands have.  Keep stoving hands and in the end it will stick in your head.
The hand above, villan played this bad as he makes you fold most of your range.  Make a note "donk leads pot on flop in 3bet pot with nuts"
I would also like to say well done, it takes alot to admit when your doing wrong and is the only way you will improve.  I too have gone back to basics, way back, £5 DYM way back.  I think my game has become too laggy and best way to nit up is DYM.  GL.

IDONKCALLU

i dont really think its about maths its about doing the basics right imo i dnt think u have played this hand to good  i would of reraised bigger pre and on the flop y raise u are only getting called by better in my opinion but on flop does play its self i would of called the flop bet and turn these little tweaks can improve your game tenfold i dont think its anything to do with maths if u raise cant go wrong with a 3 x bet and on flop cant go wrong with a 3/4 bet 

grantorino

Q1 Not much, you do the maths before or afterwards. If you do the maths you get used to the kind of equity you have in certain spots. Learn the simple ones like outs and odd with tp v draw etc

Q2 Poker math is useless unless you put the right numbers in. These are informed by your reads on the player


The hand:

3bet bigger pre, esp as a little deep

I prob flat flop, but I would find it hard to ever fold this on most turns in a 3bet pot without reads

grantorino

In Response to Re: going back to basics!:

i dont really think its about maths its about doing the basics right imo i dnt think u have played this hand to good  i would of reraised bigger pre and on the flop y raise u are only getting called by better in my opinion but on flop does play its self i would of called the flop bet and turn these little tweaks can improve your game tenfold i dont think its anything to do with maths if u raise cant go wrong with a 3 x bet and on flop cant go wrong with a 3/4 bet 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

That is what the maths is, the basics, and thinking its nothing to do with maths is kidding yourself

But yeah doing long drawn out EV calcs is not a critical part of being good at poker. At any lower levels learning some basic poker math, which shouldnt be too difficult, will do fine

pod1

thanks rancid, freechips. like i say i have been doing ok at levels up to nl40, and like you say freechips "i know i aint good enough". yes i have winning sessions at nl100 and have had good weeks at nl50, but i am not getting close to beating them. range def needs to tighten up for these levels and i think i am going to have to write a lot more notes than i am at the mo.

as for your reply idcu. raise bigger pre, yes quite possibly.i raised the flop because i put him on a good q, why would he fold???, and lastly the was no turn bet. maybe if you spent more time reading the post properly instead of insta writting a reply they would be more constructive. the 3x and the 3/4 pot bet thing is pretty ob (please understand im not new to poker or starting out at nl4) and regarding this post pretty irrelevant.

grantorino

also pod stop putting players on a single hand, put them on a range, weight range according to no of combos and likelihood they play their hand this way

pod1

thanks grantorino, will spend less time playing and more time going through some previous hands . any training site you would recommend?

pod1

see there you go again gt, yes i do try to put them on a range , but evrything after the comma after the word range has gone wooooosh!

freechips1

The best way to improve your reading of a villans range is to play HU.  Not sure how much HU you have played but it will deffo improve your game.
Training site, free vids on card runners and VT poker (kid poker i thiunk can be funny).
When looking at vids dont watch 1000nl coz its too complex and you will just level yourself, best to watch 50nl 4 table vids imo.

pod1

thanks mate. will be watching tomorrow am. 2 nite im dropping down a level or 2 , multi tablin and tightening up the range. anyone reading this im only playing 1 of 4 hands 2nite ,honest!

IDONKCALLU

if u read propersly i said y raise the flop lol

IDONKCALLU

not sure about that freechips heads up is far different to a ring game a ring game we play premium hands heads up are range is alot wider so cant see how you think its different 

grantorino

In Response to Re: going back to basics!:

see there you go again gt, yes i do try to put them on a range , but evrything after the comma after the word range has gone wooooosh!
Posted by pod1

narrow villains range as you go thru the hand

The ranges Im giving here are examples, Im not saying its anyway likely to be villains range

lets say his range pre is AT+,KJ+, 22-QQ, we know he 4bets AK,KK+
when he bets flop we can think, he only does this with KJ, AQ,KQ, AT. Thats 16+6+12+4 combos.

We crush 18 of them are a 2/1 favourite v KJ (16) and are crushed by 4, which would make it clearly +EV to continue.

If however we feel hes unlikely to do this with KQ. AQ this reduces our equity. We might think he does this 1/4 of the time with these we might call that 5 combos. This would still be ok, but obv a less favourable situation. This is the kind of way you need to think. You wont get an exact figure, but you should be able to get a feel for where your equity is

As others have said use pokerstove to check later, some results will surprise you, learn from these

freechips1

In Response to Re: going back to basics!:

not sure about that freechips heads up is far different to a ring game a ring game we play premium hands heads up are range is alot wider so cant see how you think its different 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

When playing HU we learn lots more about how a certain player plays, we see how he reacts to a beat, how he reacts to being put under preasure.  These things we dont pick up aswell if we are 9 tabling 6 max
Much more bluffing in HU so getiing villans range narrowed down is very important, it can also give us some good basics about 3/4 bet range.  Although these will be wider HU than 6 max it still gets the brain workin in the right direction.
Also in 6 max we dont/cant play just premium hands

IDONKCALLU

i agreee with what ya say there about heads up its deffo a thinking mans game and alot of bluffing and 3 betting light its about aggresion the cards are not an isssue really because 2/3 times u are going to miss that flop so its how fearless u are if u aint rolled to play heads up u will lose scared money wont win heads up

pod1

i played about 6wks solid hu back in june i think. love the game and certainly suits my style of play. got given a lesson by zing one night a put me off  a bit lol

IDONKCALLU

zing is a great player i see him win nearly 5 figures 1 night at heads up 

freechips1

HU can be super swingy so you need a big roll, 50buyin min.
The point of playing HU is to play peeps who are worse.  If you decide to play some low stakes HU a few things to think about.......
Peopple pulling short, these can make you a slow an steady profit,  beware some will sit with 30bb and dble and run on you.
Dont play <10/20p, rake at 5p/10p is 7.5% at 10/20p its 5%.  You will deffo find it hard to show profit paying 7.5% rake.

rancid

Pod you seem like a straight thinking guy try:

http://www.thepokerbank.com/articles/questions/importance-mathematics/

The site explain things in a very straight forward way, easy to learn - and you don't have to be a rocket scientist

68Trebor

 Quick question Pod. You say that you sometimes play 100nl, have been playing 50nl and I have seen you on the 30nl tables recently. I was just wondering what sort of BRM you are sticking to as it seems you are moving up and down the levels a lot. Is it the case you are playing at 50nl when you are under rolled and this is affecting the way you play.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: going back to basics!:

Pod you seem like a straight thinking guy try: http://www.thepokerbank.com/articles/questions/importance-mathematics/ The site explain things in a very straight forward way, easy to learn - and you don't have to be a rocket scientist
Posted by rancid

i just read this, pretty good..

pod1

hi trebor ,i am rolled for nl50(just at the mo). ive said in previous posts i will change levels depending on how many tables i play.example today i was playing 6xnl20 , if i went to nl30 i would take it down to to say 4 tables. nl50 i would play no more than 2 at a time and if i have had a good session (and a few beers) i will sit on 1 nl100. 

im not a real stickler to playing 1 level due to certain players at certain levels i wish to avoid. 

it normally works out about 10% of my br in play at anyone time max.

ps burns, tell me you aint read all that already, i done a few levels and i had to step away from the screens before my eyes started to bleed!

freechips1

With regards to roll.  As i said in a previous post you get some pros and many semi pros playing 50nl.  Some of these will have 20k rolls and some of the semi will have 5k rolls.
A 20 buyin roll is ok for smaller levels but when you are playin beter players and playing higher variance you need the roll.
If your happy to 2 table 50nl i would say 30 buyin is ok but if you wanna 6+ table you need a big roll 

unknown_username

In Response to Re: going back to basics!:

hi trebor ,i am rolled for nl50(just at the mo). ive said in previous posts i will change levels depending on how many tables i play.example today i was playing 6xnl20 , if i went to nl30 i would take it down to to say 4 tables. nl50 i would play no more than 2 at a time and if i have had a good session (and a few beers) i will sit on 1 nl100.  im not a real stickler to playing 1 level due to certain players at certain levels i wish to avoid.  it normally works out about 10% of my br in play at anyone time max. ps burns, tell me you aint read all that already, i done a few levels and i had to step away from the screens before my eyes started to bleed!
Posted by pod1

read all the pot odds, implied odds and the reverse implied odds......how much sank into my brain is another thing tho

unknown_username

In Response to Re: going back to basics!:

Pod you seem like a straight thinking guy try: http://www.thepokerbank.com/articles/questions/importance-mathematics/ The site explain things in a very straight forward way, easy to learn - and you don't have to be a rocket scientist
Posted by rancid

hey rancid, you know your stuff so can you answer me this question?? on that web site it say that as an example if you flop a flush draw you have 4-1 draw in odds so if you have pot odds of 5-1 and higher then you should make the call. what happens if your drawing odds and pot odds are the same ie 4-1, 4-1?? does that mean you can play it anyway you want as in fold, call or raise as in the long run you wont lose or make money with it.
cheers

huuuuume

i use none of the math stuff when im playing.  i know the basics but when im 6 tabling with no time bank its not worth getting too bogged down by it.

i play worse the less tables i play.  i cant avoid the temptation to get involved in every hand and 3 bet every button.  maybe thats what happening as you move up.


also, when i play higher i get it into my head that people are always making moves when theyre not.

grantorino

In Response to Re: going back to basics!:

In Response to Re: going back to basics! : hey rancid, you know your stuff so can you answer me this question?? on that web site it say that as an example if you flop a flush draw you have 4-1 draw in odds so if you have pot odds of 5-1 and higher then you should make the call. what happens if your drawing odds and pot odds are the same ie 4-1, 4-1?? does that mean you can play it anyway you want as in fold, call or raise as in the long run you wont lose or make money with it. cheers
Posted by BURNShurtz

4/1 would technically be a break even call for direct odds. You will nearly always have some implied odds though so you its a call pretty much always

pod1

you might be rght huuuume, i think my range does open when i play less tables when really it should be tightening up. i also think that everyone when moving through the levels you get it into your head they are making moves all the time. i remember when i did this when playing 4x nl10 /2xnl20/ 1xnl30, i just couldnt beat nl30.
i think i am going to stay at nl30 and mulit for a bit and build a roll like you suggest freechips. 2k would feeel more comfortable esp if i need to multi table to stop me opening too wide.