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FOLDING KINGS PRE

bigflop1bigflop1
edited December 2011 in The Poker Clinic
had a tough decision pre flop last night and was wondering if i made the right decision over time!!

its final table of a 50 runner live game (£25 entry) £600 up top for 1st..

7 runners left, cash bubble

im sitting pretty 2nd in chips.

kk utg - i raise 3x... utg +1 shoves with a short stack

utg + 2 flats

folded around to chip leader on bb who reshoves

i dwell for a few minutes and fold...

without being results orientated.. does anyone think i made the right fold here or am i too tight there..

the results will follow after a few replies

your thoughts please

thanks


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Comments

  • salad24salad24
    edited December 2011
    I don't think there is a "right answer" if just getting into the money is a big deal for you, then yeah, by all means fold and take the easy ladder. Personally i would call the big stack all in, his over shove makes it look like AK or maybe QQ, and yes one of the other stacks most likely will turn up with AA but you should stand to win a MASSIVE side pot.

    (wp if the big stack did turn up with the aces though)
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  • bigflop1bigflop1
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: FOLDING KINGS PRE:
    I don't think there is a "right answer" if just getting into the money is a big deal for you, then yeah, by all means fold and take the easy ladder. Personally i would call the big stack all in, his over shove makes it look like AK or maybe QQ, and yes one of the other stacks most likely will turn up with AA but you should stand to win a MASSIVE side pot. (wp if the big stack did turn up with the aces though)
    Posted by salad24
    wanted to go for win.. min cash didnt bother me.. wanted 1st place
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  • salad24salad24
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: FOLDING KINGS PRE:
    In Response to Re: FOLDING KINGS PRE : wanted to go for win.. min cash didnt bother me.. wanted 1st place
    Posted by bigflop1
    hmmm fair enough, in that case you must be putting chip leader on AA? Or did the person who flatted the shove have a big enough stack to be worried about aswell? Out of interest, were you trying to put the players on aces or did you just not want to have a 4 way pot AIPF with KK? Interesting spot.
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  • bigflop1bigflop1
    edited December 2011
    the flat had a tidy stack...but wasnt concerned about him as i think he would have rereaised to isolate if he had aces.. he wouldnt want to play a multiway pot... i put the reshove on aces.. imo he can only do this with aces
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  • GREGHOGGGREGHOGG
    edited December 2011

    depends on how much a min cash means to you i guess

    you can fold here and garentee a payday, or you can risk it on the 2nd best hand in poker. Unlucky if the big stak has aces. cant rule it out tho, but i wouldnt be surprised if he was isolating the shortstacks with AK or something.

    I think its probably correct to call though.

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  • rancidrancid
    edited December 2011
    call you have KK ) happy days !!

    If a min cash means you eat this week then fold
    If not, if you win this pot then you have the best chance of winning the whole thing, which should be you primary concern.
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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited December 2011
    hmmmmm the point here is u said big stack shoves i think i sigh fold here 1 of 2 reasons alot of action before it comes back to u and like ya said big stack covers u if he folded tho ya had to go all in against the smaller stacks but like gregg says depends how much ya need the money 
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  • gracie24gracie24
    edited December 2011
    If the big stack has A's and knocks 2 out great if he loses then you could be big stack. Sometimes you play your gut and fold to what you think are bigger hands. I think you did the right thing as a bad move and you are gone. All very well going for win but you have to be init to winit.
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  • bigflop1bigflop1
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: FOLDING KINGS PRE:
    depends on how much a min cash means to you i guess you can fold here and garentee a payday, or you can risk it on the 2nd best hand in poker. Unlucky if the big stak has aces. cant rule it out tho, but i wouldnt be surprised if he was isolating the shortstacks with AK or something. I think its probably correct to call though.
    Posted by GREGHOGG
    without being results orientated i think your right gregg.. over time i think a call is the right decision.. not sure what made me fold, just felt right at the time..

    results were tho

    was the correct fold as chip leader had aces but i would have won the pot as a king flopped!!

    would have knocked 2 players out and would have been huge chip leader 5 handed.. as it was i came 4th for £200 :(
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited December 2011
    QQ I fold just about but not KK, if he has them just a cooler.
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  • salad24salad24
    edited December 2011
    UL bigflop, good read, but yeah i would ship it in that spot (prob because i can never put people on AA) I swear everytime someone makes a sick laydown of KK v AA a king always hits...
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  • Poker_FailPoker_Fail
    edited December 2011
    I would call, The BB is chip leader so even if he does have AA he'll probably knock out the 2 shorter stacks meaning you still cash.
    If one of the shorter stacks has AA then you'll still get a decent side pot from the Chip leader.

    Ofcourse outdraws are very possible but I think it's a call
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  • TalonTalon
    edited December 2011
      There seem to be a few details missing which i believe are important for the assessment of this situation.

      These are mainly what the chipstack sizes are.

      We can safely ignore shortys stack but how many BBs do both you and the chip leader have.

      If you are sat with around 20BB before the hand and then raise that amount then you have to make the call because raise folding KK with that stack is just throwing away your tournament life.However if you have 40-50+BB then it becomes a harder question to answer.

      For me personally it would be a fold if you have enough chips behind you. This is because you have a pretty good chance of getting into the money on this hand and still have more than a big enough stack to take down the whole thing, and if the shorty happens to win then you have closed in on the chip lead anyway. This may be on the tight side but i have always believed that to go all in with KK is fine but i dont like the idea of calling all in with it for my tournament life(without good reads that is).

     Just my opinion fwiw and i am sure that many would disagree which is the beauty of this game.
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  • pod1pod1
    edited December 2011
    im with dude here ,qq i would but down as ak looks a bit tasty now but kk i dont think i would but down unless hes jumpimg around screaming"what a time to get aces!!"
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited December 2011

    how anyone is expected to decide on this without stacksizes I dont know. Reads on all other players would help too. How steep prize structure is also important 

    OP if your read is he only does this with AA obv fold. I would expect a random player to do it wider though, and I am snapping unless I know he is very tight and we both have way more than other players

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  • IDONKCALLUIDONKCALLU
    edited December 2011
    grantorino u are funny try and comment a post without saying reads or stacksizes i dare ya lol 
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  • pod1pod1
    edited December 2011
    is the stack size important gt if its the chip leader who has jammed .
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: FOLDING KINGS PRE:
    is the stack size important gt if its the chip leader who has jammed .
    Posted by pod1
    I would think so, to both pot odds and more importantly villains ranges

    Do you play the same if you open 3x, someone shoves for 8bb, someone calls and cl shoves for 17bb effective

    as: open 3x, someone shoves 20bb, flat call, cl shoves for 90bb effective?

    As an aside the people suggesting fold, is it because you put chip leaders range as KK+ or for some other tourney life related reason?
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  • PystermanPysterman
    edited December 2011
    I'm no expert and don't really feel qualified to comment, but to me the re-shove from the chip leader looks like an attempt to isolate the short-stack all-inner, which would suggest he has a strong hand but wouldn't necessarily imply he has AA. I definitely call.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited December 2011
    If you are going for 1st and not caring about a min cash it really ought to be a snap call IMO.

    Especially with all the extra equity in the pot.
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  • DaveOwlXDaveOwlX
    edited December 2011
    The amount you could win if you were correct would give you a good chance of coming first. Even if you were wrong with the big stack having the AA would you not come in the money as a consolation? Unless I've misread it your stack going in to the shove would have been higher than the short stack?
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