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Jacks
Okey dokey, first things first. A discrepancy in the way you reported the hand:
In Response to Jacks:
Love the pre-flop raise size, announcing you have a stellar hand, and if they call speculatively then they're gambling. I do not like the flop bet though. Yes there is only one overcard, but you're against 2 opponents, so it's a little more likely that one of them has hit the K. You also need to think to yourself "What hands might they limp in with, and call a raise, that might have me beat?". We're being a little paranoid if we're worrying about the small pairs that made a set on the flop, so forget them. But KT, KJ and KQ are all hands that our two villains could easily have limp-called with pre. You should remember that this is a Bounty Hunter, too, so people are going to be playing quite loose pre in the hope that they flop a big hand and get an easy double-up/knockout, so we can never rule out K9 or K8. If they haven't got a K it is highly likely that they will check behind, and then you can bet any safe turn and take the pot there. Also, the bet you made is almost half of player 1's stack, so we're forcing ourselves to call when he ships, which he's almost never doing without a hand that beats us.
As played, I kind of feel you have to call, because you got to call 700 into 2925 which is better than 4/1.
In Response to Jacks:
blinds 50/100... I raise to 300... given I'd raised 6x the big blind.Something doesn't quite add up there! I remember seeing that the pot was 1025 on the flop, so in that case I will presume that the blinds were 25/50.
Posted by S1DEWINDER
Love the pre-flop raise size, announcing you have a stellar hand, and if they call speculatively then they're gambling. I do not like the flop bet though. Yes there is only one overcard, but you're against 2 opponents, so it's a little more likely that one of them has hit the K. You also need to think to yourself "What hands might they limp in with, and call a raise, that might have me beat?". We're being a little paranoid if we're worrying about the small pairs that made a set on the flop, so forget them. But KT, KJ and KQ are all hands that our two villains could easily have limp-called with pre. You should remember that this is a Bounty Hunter, too, so people are going to be playing quite loose pre in the hope that they flop a big hand and get an easy double-up/knockout, so we can never rule out K9 or K8. If they haven't got a K it is highly likely that they will check behind, and then you can bet any safe turn and take the pot there. Also, the bet you made is almost half of player 1's stack, so we're forcing ourselves to call when he ships, which he's almost never doing without a hand that beats us.
As played, I kind of feel you have to call, because you got to call 700 into 2925 which is better than 4/1.
Comments
I was in a £2:30 Bounty Hunter, blinds 25/50. I'll talk you through what happened, then tell you why I did it.
Rough stack sizes - of the relevant people.
Me - Small Blind - 3,200
Player 1 - Cut Off - 1,500
Player 2 - Button - 3,500
My hand - JJ
Only two to call the blind are the two players in question.
I raise to 300, BB folds, other two players call.
FLOP - K83 (8 & 3 are both Clubs)
Pot is 1025.
Under the gun, I raised 550.
Player 1 goes all in - Player 2 folds.
I call, player 2 turns over K9. Turn and river cards are both blanks - I loose half my stack.
---
My thoughts (at the time) -
Pre Flop - need to raise, get one caller - hopefully Ace high, avoid the ace on the flop, and take down a rather nice pot.
Flop - Pretty nice flop, one overcard, but I felt that given I'd raised 6x the big blind, and was only called, unless someone had AK - which I didn't really have time to consider at the time, I'm probably winning here. So I figured, no point in try to trap here, bet 500, take down a 1000+ pot.
Post Flop - Ahhh!
---
My thoughts (looking back)
Pre Flop - still like the raise, an ace high board I'm worried about, but the raise suggests that only premium hands can call, so I'm quite happy to fold post flop if an Ace comes, but I'm not believing anything else - pocket pair turning into trips I cannot account for).
Flop - One overcard, not ideal obviously. But given my rationale above, I still think I'm good here. I don't see anyone with AK/KK flat calling my raise (given thats its the bounty hunter too). As for the raise, I just wanted to take down the flop, I figured if I don't raise, someone else will, then I have a really difficult decision. So the raise goes in, then he comes over the top. Now I will agree here, at this stage, theres not a great deal I'm beating - middle pair top kicker is the best hand - I don't think they're re-raising that board. As I said, I'm pretty sure I'm behind - but I may not be, and given the Bounty, even if I'm behind I have two outs, I'm pretty pot committed, and I have a very good chip stack left over even if I lose - all those reasons as to why I called, even though I thought I was behind.
---
What do you think. In a way it wasn't that difficult a decision given as it played out, I'd just like to know if anyone plays that hand any differently.
I see what you're saying. But what if he does bet (If I check) - he had a K in his hand, so likeliness says he would - then what do I do. Given the size of the pot, he'd have been committed if he'd have opened the betting first. Do I give it up?
I've slept on it and I'm still not sure!
With a flop like that, the only question is: does anyone have a king? Your flop bet asked the question, the all-in raise gave you the answer! You should have just folded afterwards.
I disagree with Youngun, you need to bet out on that flop. You just can't give a free card to players who could well be holding A9, QT.
{Don't even consider the odds of hitting the third jack - he's just as likely to hit the 3rd king! The pot is offering you 7/2 and your odds are 10/1. Fold and move on.}
"If I bet, and the shorter stack shoves on me, can I call and be ahead enough to make it profitable?" - Probably not. So, we then think "What's the smallest bet I can make that if I get shoved on I won't get good enough odds to call?" - I don't really think there is one, I would never bet less than 500 as it looks far too weak, and as we've already determined we get better than 4/1 to call the all-in if we bet 500. Next we think "If I check, will they check behind if they've missed?" - While this is read dependant, I would say that the majority of the time (especially early in a tournament) they will check if they've missed. That means to say that if we think they will check behind when they miss, they will only bet when they've hit and to lead out with anything less than a K is very brave IMO. Therefore my play on this flop would be check-fold.
In Response to Re: Jacks: I agree with this, but only if we are going to fold to the all-in (which I know is what you're advising). But when you're getting better than 4/1, and when there's a bounty to take, it's a very difficult decision. It isn't difficult to assume that we're behind here, but it's a difficult decision because I think the villain could easily show up with an 8 here 1 time out of 5 and if we think that then it's a mathematically correct call.
This is another good hand to look at, though. I'm really enjoying looking at these hands and having debates about them, finally getting this community going is one of the best things that Sky could have done.
As for committing the villian to the pot with my bet, don't forget there's another player in this hand, and anything lower and it looks extremely weak - 400 into 1025 could well get re-raised with air, and then I really don't know where I am.
The more I look at this hand the more confused I get. I do agree that perhaps I got a little too attached to the Jacks after the re-raise all in, but given the context, it still feels like a call I should make, even though the maths probably don't give me the odds.
If they both have Ace high (it's highly unlikely either of them limped with AJ-AK, so only their Ace will be live), then they only have 2 Aces to hit on the turn, which they are something like 4% to do (it would be 8% if we're also giving them a free look at the river, but we won't be doing that). So 96% of the time, or 1 time in every 20, you won't see an Ace on the turn. Is giving them a free look at a 1 in 20 shot that bad? I wouldn't think so.
I understand that's very unlikely, so let's instead say that one has A9, and one has QT. The A9 has three live aces, which he's something like 6% to hit, and the QT has three live Queens to hit, again 6%. Therefore, you are still an 88% favourite to have the best hand on the turn, or roughly 17/2. Okay, it's a little bit more of a gamble, but you're still going to have the best hand such a large amount of the time that surely letting them peel one off won't be the worst thing in the world?
I understand that it's a very healthy pot and as you were the pre-flop aggressor (with a premium hand, no less) you want to take the pot down now, but for me I think we're going to run into a K too often (against 2 opponents, remember, which is very important because if we were heads-up I will almost ALWAYS c-bet here) to make betting this flop an unprofitable play.
Also, what if we bet the flop and player 1 folded, but player 2 just called? Regardless of what the turn is, now what the eff are we going to do? We're OOP with what has now become a marginal hand against a player who has a very similar stack to us. We're in such a tricky spot. I would feel so much more comfortable check-folding the flop than getting called and being in no-mans-land on the turn.
Finally, you said you wanted that pot and you didn't want either of them to have it. That's fine, but you can find a better situation than this. You're OOP versus 2 opponents, and unless i'm mistaken have more than 3k left with the blinds still at 25/50. What's the rush? You only have 300 invested, there's no harm in letting it go and finding a better spot. As played we're back down to our starting stack, and when the blinds go up next we're very close to being in push/fold mode.
In this hand by raising so much pre you committed yourself to making a large c-bet. In relation to stack sizes at the table small ball is probably the best strategy at this stage. as it means you won't "be forced" to double the short-stack through pot commitment.
It wasn't the best play by him, but once he called with k9 and hit, there was no way he would be letting it go.
If you don't mind, i'd love to use this thread as the hot topic on Friday - so that everyone can get in on the act and Norman and Ed can disagree vehemently with me! ;-)
Would you play the hand the same if it were not a Bounty Hunter.
I ask this because you stated that, you were "pretty sure" you were behind and that you had TWO outs to redraw to.
You were getting 3.5 to 1 for your money, but, with 2 cards to come, you only had a 8%(roughly) to hit your third card.
That statement is one we should all beware of, because if you think your behind in that spot why not save your 800 chips and fold.
This is not a criticism, as i might, in the bh to have called, but i am more likely to push harder preflop.
We all play differently.
col
In Response to Re: Jacks: You make a fair point, it was one of the reasons why I made the call. Maybe, given more time to think about it, I may have done the check-fold, or just fold to the re-raise. But I had a decent stack left over even if I lost - which given all the other reasons I gave for calling + the chance (however small) of out-drawing him with another Jack - not a reason to call on its own - definatly not - but given what I'd already put in - the minor chance I was already ahead (middle pair top kicker - I'm clutching at straws with that one), the bounty.
The first one was that the flop came down with two clubs on it - I wasn't worried about the flush - to be honest I don't remember seeing it. I don't think it would've made a massive difference to hand - it may have done, but well it didn't - don't think it would change the way anyone would've played it. And if someone calls/ re-raises all in, they are behind chasing (the flush) - which is the whole point of the thread.
And the other was I bet 550, not 500 - not exactly a huge difference!
Even if I had've seen it, I don't think theres a big chance of anyone having the flush draw. But as you rightly said there would have been more reasoning to call.
As highlighted above, anyone who Called that Pre-Flop Rsise with K-9 will never consider, for even a moment, Passing once they hit. Even if they hold K-2, they won't Pass. Which is good.
So it's tough for your Jacks. But next time you'll do it with A-K, & he'll make the same call. And if the K flops, you get the lot.
There's always a positive to these Beats.
If it were me, I'd make a Player Note on him. "Station, Calls Lite, will pay me off if I hit. NEVER try & bluff him.".
In a Bounty Hunter when you'll be short on chips when the blinds go up next, you're going to be shoving on flush draws because you know you're getting called very often (because of the bounty) which gives you a maximum return if you hit. And if you don't, you weren't in great shape anyway so it's no real loss.
Again, we're getting near to 4/1 on a call (it's more like 7/2, but we'll call it 4/1 just to simplify it). Like I said before, I think our villain is showing up with an 8 one time out of 5 which also makes it a profitable call in itself, but when you throw in that our villain could show up with a flush draw one time out of 5 as well, then it's a must call for the price we're getting.
In Response to Re: Jacks: This sentence doesn't really make sense to me and I think I'm beginning to see a pretty big leak in your game here. Initially, you said you were confident that they'd only call pre-flop with decent hands as you made a big raise, which is understandable don't get me wrong, but you should never make a blanket assumption like that unless you have very specific experience and notes with these players which I'm guessing you don't. Yes, the majority of the time you're only going to be called by genuine hands there, but you should still remember that this is not ALWAYS the case and that you will find some players looking you up with speculative hands. Never completely ignore any possibility.
Now, with regards to the above quote, put yourself in villain's position, but lets say you have KQ instead (because I sense you're not loose enough to call with K9). Will it being suited or not affect whether you call the raise or not? I highly doubt it. Besides, unless im mistaken he called pre with K9 off (I can't remember if you specified that or not), so why would he not call with K9 suited!?
I read through this thread this morning and kept thinking all day there's somthing missing, why would any one call a 6raise with k9. I can't find any ref to weather or not k9 was suited,and even so still a very loose call. which begs a question, how did our villan precive us,that is was your play previous, very thight or loose (the latter i don't think but It's there just the same) if thight, well perhaps the call could be slightly justifiable (just) anyway that's how it played and so to the flop, with the k an over card and 2suited i would have to say ,a check would of been my play,a bet or raise from our villan would have to be a fold,please dont take this the wrong way,but a call/raise/reraise from us in reply,would only result in a push from our villan and take us to the same end.I think mayb his hand was suited same as/or not as the flop but got lucky hit the k and shoved,very hard for any one with any high pair not to call, but the question for me is why. the answer he hit, and realy the only hand you could of put him on after his play was, any k with poss of flush draw . All very esay for me to say,as these things are after the event but a fold,fold,fold from me chap.
JUST LIKE TO SAY THESE POST'S ARE BETTER THAN READING BOOKS.FANTASTIC!!!!!!!
Given how much player 1 has in the middle - most players aren't going to be folding any 8 here. Will also probably get it in with 99 and TT, and of course there is the flush draw out there. Plus the bounty is full of many bad players that might even be going in with a small pair or ace high here.
I would really need a read that the player was quite tight to ever be bet/folding here (or not betting in the first place and c/f)
n Response to Jacks:
i think you played it badly.
the pre flop raise is too big. you are in the early stages of a tournament and from what i can work out you were out of position. having played bounty hunter tournaments your two limpers are never folding esp the one who has you covered so why are you building the pot into a size where you are committing at least half of your chips? yes maybe a raise is worthwhile but only to fold out the big blind.
out of position the king high flop 3 way and flushing is not good for your hand. i do agree with the continuation bet but this is where your pre flop oversized raise is killing your chances. the pot is so big that to c bet you have to bet too many chips for what should be a cheap piece of information to find out. you do find the correct information but dont react to it as you should.
you have been out flopped but you made the pot so big that you cannot get away from your hand (even though you still should have folded). if the pot were smaller pre flop this would have been so much cheaper to find out!!
you also have to consider the remainder of the hand when you make your pre flop and flop bets. you are in a position where imo your jj is easy to get away from but your earlier mistakes have made it harder for you on later streets. you have made 2 big mistakes in this hand 1) too big pre flop 2) you didnt fold
you cant mistakes like these in tournaments and ever expect to come out with a positive roi
The thing of it is this,,, In these fast tournaments you have to make a hand decision very quick and to be fair get a playable stack built as soon as possible ....So don't be hard on yourself thinking you played it wrong.
However had it been me, i like to see a flop as cheap as possible if i can so i would have flat called ..? Why ?
Well, it looks to me as if this is early stage of this tournament and this is a time for "stack building" and 'chip management'.!!
Play 'small pot' poker pre-flop with any pair (except AA) It doesn't matter if it's 22 or KK at this stage you don't need to get busy out of position, because you sure to end up pushing 'All- In' on a gamble.
I have made a point in another thread about pushing All-in ..
I like to be aggressive when i need to but this would only be when I'm near the 'bubble' or on a final table !
My game is built around seeing the "TURN" card, to either THEN 'check raise' or 'bet' !!
Pairs (JJ included) are what win you big pots when you hit a 'Set' on the flop, so in the early stages be 'patient', don't try and bully or panic with an 'over card' on the flop, thats the way to the next tournament !!
glk bennydip2
you get limpers, you issue limpers tax with a nice big raise with yourself likely to be ahead but probably in a coin flip situation in your favour. In fact you was better than this against the K9- the K9 should have folded. But K9 didn't fold which is quite common so unfortunately you failed to scare off the limpers. I like your play here, just unlucky you are up against a loose player. One additional note is that a strong reraise like this often suggests a pocket pair. So when you bet out post flop if they read you as a pocket pair then they must think they are ahead as they would be statistically unlucky to run into you having KK or AA but although the raise may give away your hand it was indeed necessary in this situation.
post flop:
some advise has been that you check fold. Consider this, you check, the next player bets, the 3rd player and yourself fold... likely that they had the goods. Now consider that you check, the next player also checks and the 3rd players puts out a decent size bet (at least half the pot with the possible flush draw on the flop) then you both fold. Well this 3rd player is likely to bet if it is checked round to them because it is very unlikely that someone would check top pair on a flush draw board. Add in the chance that someone might check the flush draw board with top pair as a very deceptive form of slow play then you will be in trouble when you bet on the turn. So by checking you either fold to a bet by the 2nd player or fold to the 3rd player's continuation bet... both of these situations very very likely and so by checking you are effectively advertising your weakness and asking to be bluffed out of the pot by a continuation bet.
Now i'll consider the option of raising. The raise must be a decent size (again at least half the pot) which it was, this is a display of strength in an effort to take the pot down there and then and i have no problems with that- good play. Ok so you now find yourself with one player shoving all in and one player folding, the player all in is unlikely to have worse than top pair (possibly the exception a flush draw as a poor semi bluff) because of the fact that this tournament is a bounty hunter, your investment in the pot, your stack size and you were also first to act so unlikely to be bluffing. You asked the question... you got your answer, you raised he shoved so you have to FOLD. Very easy to call, it's only the press of a button leaving you with a decent sized stack but the fact you told yourself you were behind means that you read the situation well and have to listen to yourself! In future ask the question to get an answer and act upon that answer. Not a terrible call because it has been pointed out that it may be the exception of a bluff or semi bluff and you would take a bounty but that would leave you in a much weaker state so save your chips and bully the short stacks in a better situation!
Sorry i know this has been a long post but one more thing to add, if you are willing to call an all in on the flop why are you not willing to push all in yourself? By pushing all in you would take away the option of being out played to a bluff. The reason you would not just push all in is because with 2 other players in the pot you are likely to be behind... so once again just fold after asking the question!
I hope this helps and good luck in the future.
Shuff
pushing all in on the flop is the worst suggestion i have heard so far. you will only get called by a hand that is beating yours....there is also a player who has you covered so this is your tournament life on the line.
the pre flop bet is bad and is a common mistake made by loads of players on this site. would you make that raise with 10 9? would you make it with A8? the answer is no.....this means it doesnt take a genius to work out a precise range of what you could be holding. pre flop are you happy if you fold out all the limpers? the answer should be no.
what you are demonstrating is a fear to play post flop (where the action is)
continuation bet is fine but you have to react the correct way when someone is screaming at you that they have you beat. the fold was an easy fold so like i said earlier there are 2 clear mistakes in this hand
and to reply to above poster.....the re raise on the flop is never ever a bluff....the best you can hope to see is a naked flush draw. the reason it is never a bluff is because your flop raise is sooo big that they know you are never folding. they can only ever turn up here with a hand better than yours because every single thing you have done suggests you wont be getting away from this hand. the other player only needs to worry about 3 hands AK KK and AA which is such a small number of hands
sorry if i come across critical just my honest opinion of one individual hand