Newbie error?

INGLENOOK · June 2009

Hi all.

Love the show and site.

As a relative newbie, just wondered if you could give me some advice on hand I just played and lost!
Wondering if I played it wrong...or where I went wrong...

On the beginners table 0.02/0.04 10 Player.

Im in mid position with £4.80 in cash. Not too much raising in the short time I have been playing, so I limp with Q,10.
Im in pink (Not literally!) Winner in Red.

/>GODMAN folded
/>HarryLove called for £0.04.
/>DANYARD folded
/>acebandit called for £0.04.
/>INGLENOOK called for £0.04.
/>carlos26 folded
/>carlos26 has sat out.
/>carlos26 has sat back in.
/>bluearab has gone all in for £0.16.
/>Moyle folded
/>DaveB86 called for £0.12.
/>HarryLove called for £0.12.
/>acebandit called for £0.12.
>INGLENOOK called for £0.12.
/>Dealing the flop (2h,6d,Jc).
/>DaveB86 checked.
/>BIG_JACK has sat back in.
/>HarryLove checked.
/>acebandit checked.
>INGLENOOK checked.
/>Dealing the turn (Th).
/>DaveB86 checked.
/>bluearab has topped up their balance to £0
/>HarryLove checked.
/>acebandit checked.
>INGLENOOK bet £0.44.
>DaveB86 called for £0.44.
/>HarryLove folded
/>acebandit folded
/>Dealing the river (Ts).
/>DaveB86 checked.
>INGLENOOK bet £0.84.
/>DaveB86 called for £0.84.
/>INGLENOOK showed Qd,Tc.
/>bluearab mucked.
/>DaveB86 showed 2s,2d.
/>DaveB86 has won the hand (£3.22) with Full House, 2s and 10s (2s,2d,2h,Th,Ts)

Should I have just checked the river down? Winner was playing a little tight!

Just wanted to know if I could have done something better. I feel now that on a 10 player table, maybe I shoulda just mucked....

Thanks guys. Look forward to improving!

mr_mbro · June 2009

In Response to Newbie error?:

Hi all. Love the show and site. As a relative newbie, just wondered if you could give me some advice on hand I just played and lost! Wondering if I played it wrong...or where I went wrong... On the beginners table 0.02/0.04 10 Player. Im in mid position with £4.80 in cash. Not too much raising in the short time I have been playing, so I limp with Q,10. Im in pink (Not literally!) Winner in Red. />GODMAN folded />HarryLove called for £0.04. />DANYARD folded />acebandit called for £0.04. /> INGLENOOK called for £0.04. />carlos26 folded />carlos26 has sat out. />carlos26 has sat back in. />bluearab has gone all in for £0.16. />Moyle folded />DaveB86 called for £0.12. />HarryLove called for £0.12. />acebandit called for £0.12. />INGLENOOK called for £0.12. />Dealing the flop (2h,6d,Jc). />DaveB86 checked. />BIG_JACK has sat back in. />HarryLove checked. />acebandit checked. >INGLENOOK checked. />Dealing the turn (Th). /> DaveB86 checked. />bluearab has topped up their balance to £0 />HarryLove checked. />acebandit checked. >INGLENOOK bet £0.44. >DaveB86 called for £0.44. />HarryLove folded />acebandit folded />Dealing the river (Ts). /> DaveB86 checked. >INGLENOOK bet £0.84. /> DaveB86 called for £0.84 . /> INGLENOOK showed Qd,Tc. />bluearab mucked. /> DaveB86 showed 2s,2d. />DaveB86 has won the hand (£3.22) with Full House, 2s and 10s (2s,2d,2h,Th,Ts) Should I have just checked the river down? Winner was playing a little tight! Just wanted to know if I could have done something better. Thanks guys. Look forward to improving!
Posted by INGLENOOK

Hi
what would you have done if he bet out, or reraised?
you could have checked but the river was a dream card for you. You couldnt have him on a pair of 2s.
From what you said he could have had a jack, but he disguised his hand well.
the next level to poker is to think about your opponents possible hand range.
In my opinion, you were dead when he housed up, so you did well not to lose your whole stack.

col

INGLENOOK · June 2009

In Response to Re: Newbie error?:

In Response to Newbie error? : Hi what would you have done if he bet out, or reraised? you could have checked but the river was a dream card for you. You couldnt have him on a pair of 2s. From what you said he could have had a jack, but he disguised his hand well. the next level to poker is to think about your opponents possible hand range. In my opinion, you were dead when he housed up, so you did well not to lose your whole stack. col
Posted by mr_mbro

Thanks for that Mr Bro.

As a newbie learning and wishing to build up some sort of Bankroll, what would be your advice on games to play while learning?

Small stakes 6 player? Freerolls, and low stakes tournies?

Thanks again

S1DEWINDER · June 2009

Inglenook - I'm not a huge cash player myself, but I'll throw my two penniworth in here.

Looking at the hand, I don't particularly mind how you played it. My gut reaction said the call of the 0.12 pre-flop was a little bit tardy. Looking again though, the pot is 0.70 big at that point - 0.12 to call, 6-1 on your money, nice enough odds - so on the whole, don't mind that at all.

After that you just got unforntunate. Its near impossible to put someone on a set - particularly when they don't bet it. But the fact that no-one bet the flop certainly suggested that there was a good chance that there was nothing out there.

Nothing wrong with the turn bet, the flop betting suggests that nobody has anything, therefore you're second pair here is probably good. As was said in my thread on the jacks, the fact your raise got some action suggests your second pair may not actually be good - but the only hands that are beating you on the turn that are realistic given the board - top pair/top kicker, two pair - on the river you were now beating. He may have had a heart flush draw - given there was no betting on the flop, that he missed out on. As was you ended up getting beaten by a small amount of hands.

These things happen, you got unlucky in getting lucky - if you get what I'm saying.

There will be better cash players on here that will probably offer a better analysis - but thats my opinion.

INGLENOOK · June 2009

Thanks for your thoughts Sidewinder!

I know this is a little low level stuff for you guys, but unless you ask, you' ll never find out!
Thanks for your time.

BigBluster · June 2009

Examine the villain's play as well as your own. He hit a set, checked the flop, checked the turn, called a turn bet, checked the river, then called a river bet with a full house.

Do you think this is optimal? I don't. So think about how you would have played it differently in his seat, as well as thinking about how you could have played it differently from yours.

YoungUn · June 2009

You did nothing wrong my friend. You had every reason to suggest your hand was best on the turn and on the river and you're getting many worse 10s to at least call you with the way the hand was played. Also, you're on .02/.04, so some people will think that T9 is the absolute nuts and will probably raise you on the end. You should never check the river unless you have a super awesome read on your opponent because you're just losing so much value vs. a weaker 10 or a really badly played J6/J2. Just be thankful that your opponent was so bad that he didn't take all your money off you (that is in no way a disservice to you, because as has already been said you're infront often enough there that you will be calling all-ins on the end).

INGLENOOK · June 2009

Thanks guys for your comments.

I read quite a few poker books then spent several months on play tables trying to learn this great game. Just decided to have a go for real cash, as on PKR.com play tables I got to the top tables, and betting 100,000 on many hands, just got a bit silly and pointless, as I had several millions in the bank. LOL.

Looking back at the hand from the 'villains' point of view, in a lot of the books I have read, many advise to bet out when you have hit a set on the flop. Would this have been better for him? I probably would have folded though depending on the size of the bet, so is this really the best play I wonder?

S1DEWINDER · June 2009

In Response to Re: Newbie error?:

Thanks guys for your comments. I read quite a few poker books then spent several months on play tables trying to learn this great game. Just decided to have a go for real cash, as on PKR.com play tables I got to the top tables, and betting 100,000 on many hands, just got a bit silly and pointless, as I had several millions in the bank. LOL. Looking back at the hand from the 'villains' point of view, in a lot of the books I have read, many advise to bet out when you have hit a set on the flop. Would this have been better for him? I probably would have folded though depending on the size of the bet, so is this really the best play I wonder?
Posted by INGLENOOK

Not particularly. The board was very dull, no straight draw or flush draw there what-so-ever, so hitting a set and giving your opponents one or two free cards isn't the worst idea. If its a draw heavy board, then perhaps he'd be right to. Say two suited cards and maybe something that could help a straight - but a rainbow 2 6 J board is about as dull as you're going to get.

INGLENOOK · June 2009

In Response to Re: Newbie error?:

In Response to Re: Newbie error? : Not particularly. The board was very dull, no straight draw or flush draw there what-so-ever, so hitting a set and giving your opponents one or two free cards isn't the worst idea. If its a draw heavy board, then perhaps he'd be right to. Say two suited cards and maybe something that could help a straight - but a rainbow 2 6 J board is about as dull as you're going to get.
Posted by S1DEWINDER

Good point. Thanks.

BigBluster · June 2009

In Response to Re: Newbie error?:

Looking back at the hand from the 'villains' point of view, in a lot of the books I have read, many advise to bet out when you have hit a set on the flop. Would this have been better for him? I probably would have folded though depending on the size of the bet, so is this really the best play I wonder?
Posted by INGLENOOK

An example comes to mind of a good tournament play which is a very poor cash game play.

One play that works very well in tournaments but should never work in a cash game, is simply shoving all-in when you flop a little set on an ace flop. Not sophisticated for sure, but I can assure you it works.
Suppose you hold 2-2 and the flop comes AQ2. By shoving all-in, you're telling everyone that you've got a set of deuces, after all what else could you have? But I can guarantee that 9 times out of 10 someone will call you! They've waited around patiently for a decent hand, hit top pair and just can not lay down their big aces. Of course they are drawing dead when they call (even another A on the turn gives you a full house) but call they will.
Surprisingly, this play works very well at all stages of a tournament because even at the final table when players are generally more sophisticated, the blinds are so high that it is often difficult to fold top pair/top kicker and impossible to fold two pair.
Of course, it is not wise to shove with 2-2 on a J62 flop, but when an ace or two picture cards fall, do it.

shuffle62 · June 2009

Im am also a recent new player having joined about 3 months ago. My advice to you is to play either 2p/4p cash tables if you have a bankroll of at least £80 or play 30p double your money sit and goes and grind your way up through the different buy in levels. Aim to play with no more than 10% of your bank roll and you shouldn't lose it all. Play tight poker by only playing premium hands, particularly early. As 3/6 players cash in double your money the variance is reduced so you only have to worry about scraping into the top 3 and not actually winning the tournament so that is the best place to learn. Good luck!
Now considering what happened in the hand, limping with Q10 i dont like. Hands like Q10 are danger hands. Ideally you want 10 to be top pair as your queen kicker is likely to stand up but this is unlikely because chances are an over card will be on the flop. Also if you hit a queen as top pair on the flop you can be out kicked by QJ, QK and QA and it will be difficult to lay your Q10 down. So Q10 will give you tough decisions so in my oppinion you should have folded there. If you was first to act in position then you may like to play this hand with a hand to suggest you have a stronger holding than Q10. On the flop your check was fine as there were a number of players in the pot and it would not be worth taking down. You hit a ten on the turn and you did the right thing to bet it so that you could either win by having the best hand or by making everyone else fold. OK so you got a caller, but at least you hit 3 of a kind on the river! That's great you no longer have to worry about 2 pair or the jack over card and it is unlikely you will have your three of a kind out kicker as your queen kicker is not too bad. So again, right thing betting on the river but you was very unlucky to be called by someone who had a full house. So unlucky you but in future avoid limping with dangerous mediocre hands such as Q10.

Newbie error?

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