advice on hand please

robyoung

ok, so i lost a biggish pot at nl20, so a few questions id like to ask

1: my betting preflop, once the others called the 3 bet, should my 4bet have been much bigger, even possibly jam pre and hope for at least one call?, i wanted to have at least one customer but not multiple.

2: once the flop comes is it a case of just getting the money in and praying we have the best hand? i figured if anyone hit the flop ie top pair or heavy draw they wasnt going away

3: once we have them callers is there a possibilty we can actually lay this down on the flop? may sound way too nitty i know but i had a bad feeling when the flop came somebody may have spiked 2 pair or a set, but for the money in middle i decided to go with it

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
simonnatur	Small blind		£0.20	£0.20	£19.00
arthur1965	Big blind		£0.20	£0.40	£23.94
	Your hole cards	A A
robyoung	Raise		£0.80	£1.20	£33.57
jkjkfkcd	Raise		£1.40	£2.60	£13.38
jesuslolz	Fold
kirby100	Call		£1.40	£4.00	£9.68
simonnatur	Call		£1.20	£5.20	£17.80
arthur1965	Fold
robyoung	Raise		£3.80	£9.00	£29.77
jkjkfkcd	Call		£3.20	£12.20	£10.18
kirby100	Call		£3.20	£15.40	£6.48
simonnatur	Call		£3.20	£18.60	£14.60
Flop
		4 9 10
simonnatur	Check
robyoung	Bet		£8.60	£27.20	£21.17
jkjkfkcd	Call		£8.60	£35.80	£1.58
kirby100	All-in		£6.48	£42.28	£0.00
simonnatur	All-in		£14.60	£56.88	£0.00
robyoung	Call		£6.00	£62.88	£15.17
jkjkfkcd	All-in		£1.58	£64.46	£0.00
simonnatur	Show	10 9
robyoung	Show	A A
jkjkfkcd	Show	J K
kirby100	Show	J 10
Turn
		7
River
		5
simonnatur	Win	Two Pairs, 10s and 9s	£62.66		£62.66

unknown_username

How much was the opening raise for? the 3-bet? and your 4-bet? the copy and paste has cut off the amounts mate.

YOUNG_GUN

Looks UL mate

Pre, i'd 4 bet a little more as you have a 3 bet and 2 flats can bump it up here quite a bit imo like £5-£6

Due to stacksize the rest is ul post flop you have invested too much to get away as they are too shallow and they got lucky by hitting 2 pair.

rancid

4 bet £5-6 – commit them

LOL_RAISE

prob just jam the flop tbh

hurst05

raise to like £5+ pre imo. with the opponents stack sizes after the flop, just do a jam. 

grantorino

4bet size is fine imo. why do we want to make it bigger?

shove flop, as played never fold

IDONKCALLU

if ya only wanna make it against 1 person not multiple you havent raised it enough here m8 i would be looking at around £5.50 - £7 u are telegraphing ya hand a bit with the raise but like u said u dnt want it multi way with aces more then likely u will be beat on flop is pretty standard just think raise more preflop u wouldnt get people calling with 9 10 off suit 

grantorino

In Response to Re: advice on hand please:

if ya only wanna make it against 1 person not multiple you havent raised it enough here m8 i would be looking at around £5.50 - £7 u are telegraphing ya hand a bit with the raise but like u said u dnt want it multi way with aces more then likely u will be beat on flop is pretty standard just think raise more preflop u wouldnt get people calling with 9 10 off suit 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

yeah cos its so bad getting called by worse hands

with effective stacks here I cant see much reason to raise any bigger

unknown_username

I concur with the majority. Make it at least £5/6 to go pre, maybe more. I dont want this multi-way and if i take it down pre then there wasnt that much to be made anyway but with jkjk firing back at me and showing strength i want to isolate him. If its too cheap, he will call and then people start to feel they are priced in and we go multi way to the flop.

I'd rather win a small pot than lose a big one.

debdobs_67

In Response to Re: advice on hand please:

In Response to Re: advice on hand please : yeah cos its so bad getting called by worse hands with effective stacks here I cant see much reason to raise any bigger
Posted by grantorino

Yeah but the MORE worst hands in a pot just makes it MORE likely of an outdraw , tho 1 vs 1 i do agree with ya

grantorino

@dr sharp: Id rather win a big pot than a small one

@debs: Is it really going to be more profitable to take this heads up rather than multiway. Also at 20NL I wouldnt expect it to go multiway that often, hero shows huge strength 4betting here

betsize is fine imo, it leaves roughly a psb on flop even if we only get one caller. If you want to 4bet bigger just jam imo

barnsie

maybe a little more pre flop but otherwise fine standard hand take notes about how bad they are and move on

rancid

either way just raise so you commit oppo, shove any flop

If your 4 betting, then you just have to commit yourself at the same time

if your 4 betting to get it in, then if our 4 bet gets flat it's like wtf !
Why play post flop poker in a 4 bet pot multi way, thats gonna hurt and we just ain't deep enough
If you have commited 1/3 of your stack and/or effective then your kinda in for long haul in a 4bet pot, don't you think

unknown_username

In Response to x:

@dr sharp: Id rather win a big pot than a small one @debs: Is it really going to be more profitable to take this heads up rather than multiway. Also at 20NL I wouldnt expect it to go multiway that often, hero shows huge strength 4betting here betsize is fine imo, it leaves roughly a psb on flop even if we only get one caller. If you want to 4bet bigger just jam imo
Posted by grantorino

Well, yeah, obviously, but AA doesnt play that well multiway. The jkjk guy re  raises pre and that shows enough strength, depending on his range, to try and isolate him. The reason i make it bigger pre is the fact that jkjk will probably call given the action so far. Therefore, if you make it smallish it makes the pot odds attractive to those who act after him and therefore hands like 10,9 come along for the ride. Yes, we do want these hands to call but not 3 or 4 of them as the chances of winning the pot becomes less and less. If we make it bigger then jkjk, if he is strong will come along for the ride anyway, but it discourages the others from seeing a flop.

If you dont mind going muti way and gambling with this hand, then fine. Depends on your views on the actual strength of AA post flop against multiple players.

gracie24

You need to reduce oppos so when people raise and re-raise pre flop and I have AA then I am all in. With your stack they will get message. However, with a table like this it is no surprise you got a big stack.

gracie24

Sorry misses 2 and 3. Where with all the money in and small stacks it had to be a crying call.

grantorino

In Response to Re: advice on hand please:

You need to reduce oppos so when people raise and re-raise pre flop and I have AA then I am all in. With your stack they will get message. However, with a table like this it is no surprise you got a big stack.
Posted by gracie24

what message would they get?

grantorino

In Response to Re: x:

In Response to x : Well, yeah, obviously, but AA doesnt play that well multiway. The jkjk guy re  raises pre and that shows enough strength, depending on his range, to try and isolate him. The reason i make it bigger pre is the fact that jkjk will probably call given the action so far. Therefore, if you make it smallish it makes the pot odds attractive to those who act after him and therefore hands like 10,9 come along for the ride. Yes, we do want these hands to call but not 3 or 4 of them as the chances of winning the pot becomes less and less. If we make it bigger then jkjk, if he is strong will come along for the ride anyway, but it discourages the others from seeing a flop. If you dont mind going muti way and gambling with this hand, then fine. Depends on your views on the actual strength of AA post flop against multiple players.
Posted by DrSharp

obviously we also rather win a small pot than lose a big one, but its a pretty meaningless statement that is often used to justify dubious play. Should op just openshove pre to make everyone fold? Well he prob wins a small pot instead of losing a big one, does that make it good?

Its not about my views on the strength of AA its about its actual strength. Ask yourself which will be more profitable, betting bigger and getting one caller or smaller and possibly getting more. In this case I would likely go smaller, as even if we get only 1 caller it should still be pretty easy stack him and I dont think we give other callers good enough odds to call. They flop worse hands and get it in more often than they hit 2pair usually.

Im not certain what will be more profitable here, but assuming getting one caller will be best doesnt seem right to me. Yeah we lose more often but we win more when we win

rancid

Think if the tabale has been calling raises multi way then it's a good enough reason to inflate the pot with a nice big raise imo

the bigger the pot is going to the flop the better

why would we enjoy seeing a flop multi way with AA GT ?

why would we like less equity ? 4 way flop looking at 60-70% only for AA

unknown_username

In Response to Re: x:

In Response to Re: x : obviously we also rather win a small pot than lose a big one, but its a pretty meaningless statement that is often used to justify dubious play. Should op just openshove pre to make everyone fold? Well he prob wins a small pot instead of losing a big one, does that make it good? Its not about my views on the strength of AA its about its actual strength. Ask yourself which will be more profitable, betting bigger and getting one caller or smaller and possibly getting more. In this case I would likely go smaller, as even if we get only 1 caller it should still be pretty easy stack him and I dont think we give other callers good enough odds to call. They flop worse hands and get it in more often than they hit 2pair usually. Im not certain what will be more profitable here, but assuming getting one caller will be best doesnt seem right to me. Yeah we lose more often but we win more when we win
Posted by grantorino

1st bolded bit - I know its about the actual strength and if someone could put it in to an odds calculator it could be interesting to see what the difference would be between how the hand played out and how the hand would have played out against the jkjk fella. I would think AA is quite a bit less than 50% going multi way but you do win more when you take it down.

2nd bolded bit - this is what i was referring to when i said it is about your views on playing it multi way. Most people lke this hand heads up but you dont mind it multi way. Thats your view. Sorry if that came across badly in text.

I think we have had this debate before and we didnt resolve it then lol. Going multiway is a bit more gambly as your % of winning decreases the more people come along but as you rightly say, you win a bigger pot when your aces do hold. If we have an edge, why do we want to lessen our %? To be honest, i am not sure which way is the most profitable over a certain number of hands but it seems to be drummed in to us that AA should go heads up if you can.

IDONKCALLU

i think your wrong here grantorino of course u want to win a bigger pot and u are ok multiway ? i would want this heads up with aa id rather win a small pot then risk losing my whole stack with aa multiway its all about grinding in cash this is just 1 hand and loads more to play just raise big pre and take the pot y play multiway when u have more chance of losing 

LOL_RAISE

odds calculator wont tell you anything since we are auto shoving 100% of flops they are paying to see 3cards not 5,
maybe op can 4bet 1-2bbs bigger but i think other than that preflop is perfect

lennyh

 This is why i prefer this site to any other,when you get the top cash player giving advice for no other reason than just wanting to help.


breath of fresh air.

potattoooo

you could 4bet slightly bigge pre, but its by no means terrible! ppl are def nitpickin & some aint makin any sense at all imo. 100% jam flop

grantorino

potatoo:
you could 4bet slightly bigge pre, but its by no means terrible! ppl are def nitpickin & some aint makin any sense at all imo. 100% jam flop

Agreed. I dont have much issue with way op played hand, just think jamming flop is better than small bet. I dont agree with posters that say we should raise bigger pre for the reason of making people fold, thats what most of debate has been about

Rancid
why would we enjoy seeing a flop multi way with AA GT ?

why would we like less equity ? 4 way flop looking at 60-70% only for AA

Because people calling me with worse hands is usually good. Yes I will have less equity, doesnt always make it less profitable.

For example, my equity here is about 67% v all 3 hands and 87% v KJ preflop. Lets assume I openshove with effective stacks 100BB. Which is more profitable getting it in 4way or head up? Now as lolraise has pointed out equities arent that useful here with more money to go in pot and I have way oversimplified the situation with example above, but I think it shows going multiway might be more profitable and I think it should be here given effective stacks

idonkcallu
 think your wrong here grantorino of course u want to win a bigger pot and u are ok multiway ? i would want this heads up with aa id rather win a small pot then risk losing my whole stack with aa multiway its all about grinding in cash this is just 1 hand and loads more to play just raise big pre and take the pot y play multiway when u have more chance of losing 

See above about why I am happy multiway. As for losing my stack, who cares if Im rolled properly? Why would you want to take pot down with the nuts? It is about grinding which is why I want to maximise my EV here, even if it means I lose more often

There may be good reasons to raise bigger pre, but making worse hands fold should not be one imo, especially with stack to pot ratios so low