NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise

The_Don90

pretty readless on this opponent tbh. Just curious as to opinions on the river.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
dazza50014	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.50
The_Don90	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£4.65
	Your hole cards	5 5
tonsar23	Fold
mimimimi	Fold
xx	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£3.18
weed4	Fold
dazza50014	Call		£0.02	£0.12	£1.48
The_Don90	Check
Flop
		3 K 8
dazza50014	Check
The_Don90	Check
xx	Check
Turn
		7
dazza50014	Check
The_Don90	Check
xx	Check
River
		5
dazza50014	Check
The_Don90	Bet		£0.28	£0.40	£4.37
xx	Raise		£0.96	£1.36	£2.22
dazza50014	Fold
The_Don90	Call		£0.68	£2.04	£3.69

grantorino

I might raise pre, but limping fine

Id be very tempted to jam river, but he should be strong when he raises big over an overbet on river, meh think I prob jam

unknown_username

Limping is fine pre flop. Having a cheap look at a flop is the main aim with small pocket pairs, theres not much bluffing to be had later at NL4 so lets se if we can hit a monster as cheap as possible.

Rest of the hand is fine but i think i re raise him all in on the end. It doesnt really make sense but you'll get called by plenty of 2 pair hands i would have thought to make this ok. He could just think your at it!

Unknown

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

I might raise pre, but limping fine Id be very tempted to jam river, but he should be strong when he raises big over an overbet on river, meh think I prob jam
Posted by grantorino

None of this advice is good. Raising pre is terrible from the big blind, and jam 3betting is terrible because villain is heavily weighted towards straight+sets (you only beat 33). I call if he overvalues bottom set and 87 (or plays AA ridiculously badly), and fold if he only ever raises the river with nut/2nd nut hands.

barnsie

river raise at these stakes can often be the nuts and there are a fair number of hands beaten you here

i sigh call cant see much argument for a raise unless you have notes

grantorino

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : None of this advice is good. Raising pre is terrible from the big blind, and jam 3betting is terrible because villain is heavily weighted towards straight+sets (you only beat 33). I call if he overvalues bottom set and 87 (or plays AA ridiculously badly), and fold if he only ever raises the river with nut/2nd nut hands.
Posted by CoxyLboro

while limping may be better than raising, I certainly dont agree that raising is terrible

As for river, again you may be correct that raising is not optimal, his range may well be weighted towards straights. Dont think we can fold this readless though. I think if he shows up with straights here its quite likely he can call off with some hands we beat, maybe not enough in his range though

DOHHHHHHH

he's on the bb anyway.....

i'da been shoving river b4 reading the replies. prob still would in game, but looks like thats wrong.

Dudeskin8

Hand looks fine to me. 

Don't see why you raise river, limped pot he can have ATC so easily some straight possible, simple flat.

Also raising pre, thats a good one lol. 

Unknown

@grantorino If you can raise 55 from the bb vs two limpers profitably in the long term I'll eat my hat. 

@Doh, its not wrong necessarily, but do a weighted analysis of his range and what he calls off the river with that doesnt bet flop/turn and you beat, and I think it'll show how bad shoving is.

Even without weighting, its kinda like this;

Hands that call that we beat {33}

Hands that call some of the time that we beat {75,87,AA} (Never exclude AA from your considerations at the micro stakes, in any spot)

Hands that call that we lose to {KK,88,77,64,96}

rancid

fine pre

flat river

grantorino

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

@grantorino If you can raise 55 from the bb vs two limpers profitably in the long term I'll eat my hat.  @Doh, its not wrong necessarily, but do a weighted analysis of his range and what he calls off the river with that doesnt bet flop/turn and you beat, and I think it'll show how bad shoving is. Even without weighting, its kinda like this; Hands that call that we beat {33} Hands that call some of the time that we beat {75,87,AA} (Never exclude AA from your considerations at the micro stakes, in any spot) Hands that call that we lose to {KK,88,77,64,96}
Posted by CoxyLboro

I see everyone else hates raising pre, so yeah checking prob better, but I would raise here a bit and havent noticed it leading to me burning money (havent properly looked though so its possible I am). Obv different levels will play slightly different and as I said I think checking is fine.

As regards weighting the range its a pretty difficult spot to do this. I think looking back at it you are correct and calling is prob better than raising, but Im not too sure I agree with your ranges. Can we put all combos of 96 and 64 in his openlimping range?. We surely have to remove some of AA,KK. Can he have other 2pair combos, like K3? bluffs?. I dont think he will fold very often though with any hand he valueraises big over an overbet. Im wouldnt trust people who open limp 96o not to show up with worse quite a lot if we shove, but yeah raising prob not good idea

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : I see everyone else hates raising pre, so yeah checking prob better, but I would raise here a bit and havent noticed it leading to me burning money (havent properly looked though so its possible I am). Obv different levels will play slightly different and as I said I think checking is fine. As regards weighting the range its a pretty difficult spot to do this. I think looking back at it you are correct and calling is prob better than raising, but Im not too sure I agree with your ranges. Can we put all combos of 96 and 64 in his openlimping range?. We surely have to remove some of AA,KK. Can he have other 2pair combos, like K3? bluffs?. I dont think he will fold very often though with any hand he valueraises big over an overbet. Im wouldnt trust people who open limp 96o not to show up with worse quite a lot if we shove, but yeah raising prob not good idea
Posted by grantorino

I think you have to keep all 69/64 hands and KK/AA in his range simply because im readless at NL4

potattoooo

i think you should def just flat river readless, cant think of much thats callin that we beat if we raise. but at this level, with loads of ppl open limpin all the time & others joining the funbus, they could show up with absolutly anything! you could argue that there is value from wierdly played 2 pair combos or even just some guy going crazy with a pair so i guess at these stakes it does make these decisions a little trickier. but flatting is def the correct move imo.

checkin your 55's in the bb is fine, like someone said over time i think your burning money raisin these type of hands oop against morons

yb

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : I see everyone else hates raising pre, so yeah checking prob better, but I would raise here a bit and havent noticed it leading to me burning money (havent properly looked though so its possible I am). Obv different levels will play slightly different and as I said I think checking is fine. As regards weighting the range its a pretty difficult spot to do this. I think looking back at it you are correct and calling is prob better than raising, but Im not too sure I agree with your ranges. Can we put all combos of 96 and 64 in his openlimping range?. We surely have to remove some of AA,KK. Can he have other 2pair combos, like K3? bluffs?. I dont think he will fold very often though with any hand he valueraises big over an overbet. Im wouldnt trust people who open limp 96o not to show up with worse quite a lot if we shove, but yeah raising prob not good idea
Posted by grantorino

the people who are gonna bluff these rivers aren't generally the type to check two streets first imo. also i don't really think theres a correlation between how wide someone is limping in pre and how wide they value raise the river to an overbet. i think you can probably remove more combos of 33/k3 etc. than you can 64/96 because he bets a set/two-pair on the flop or turn a non-zero amount of the time.

LOL_RAISE

its a throw up in your mouth a little fold

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

its a throw up in your mouth a little fold
Posted by LOL_RAISE

i actually considered a fold being honest, just not good enough to make it. in curiousity can you explain why?

grantorino

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : the people who are gonna bluff these rivers aren't generally the type to check two streets first imo. also i don't really think theres a correlation between how wide someone is limping in pre and how wide they value raise the river to an overbet. i think you can probably remove more combos of 33/k3 etc. than you can 64/96 because he bets a set/two-pair on the flop or turn a non-zero amount of the time.
Posted by yb

yeah I agree with a lot of this, if we start removing combos we prob remove more of the other ones than straights. Just making the point its pretty difficult to weight his range. Bluffs will be very unlikely. Dont think like don suggests we should leave in all combos pre, randomers at 4nl surely sometimes raise AA/KK pre or fold 96o or 83o

As to correlation with his raising range, I find players who openlimp hands like 96o are more likely to overvalue weak made hands in a spot like this because they wont even think about dons range. If they raise anything we beat they usually wont fold it to a 3bet. However prob not enough of these hands in villains range, I agree my first post was wrong, raising river is bad here

Unknown

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : i actually considered a fold being honest, just not good enough to make it. in curiousity can you explain why?
Posted by The_Don90

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned why it could be a fold on the river, and I'd assume lol_raise would have similar thought processes to me

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : I'm pretty sure I've mentioned why it could be a fold on the river, and I'd assume lol_raise would have similar thought processes to me
Posted by CoxyLboro

yer i re-read i was pretty tired when i asked. ur reasoning is pretty sound and similar to what i thought at the time. I was sort of caught between that and what GT says about the shoving. being unsure i flatted. Again obviously ive posted this im not happy with my play.

Being honest its spots like this where i need to improve.

Unknown

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : yer i re-read i was pretty tired when i asked. ur reasoning is pretty sound and similar to what i thought at the time. I was sort of caught between that and what GT says about the shoving. being unsure i flatted. Again obviously ive posted this im not happy with my play. Being honest its spots like this where i need to improve.
Posted by The_Don90

These spots are so infrequent and are so small relative to playing well in 3b/4b pots that I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm surprised you are 'caught between that and [shoving]'. You've basically made it clear that villain had a worse hand than you, and you don't feel you got the max value. Again; this spot is so super infrequent that getting max value vs losing your stack to a stronger hand will have a VERY long time to balance out. You have to have run into a villain who will raise/call it off with worse more often than you run into someone who raise/calls it off with better.

Now, pretend you had KK on the river and this hand becomes a lot more interesting.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : These spots are so infrequent and are so small relative to playing well in 3b/4b pots that I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm surprised you are 'caught between that and [shoving]'. You've basically made it clear that villain had a worse hand than you, and you don't feel you got the max value. Again; this spot is so super infrequent that getting max value vs losing your stack to a stronger hand will have a VERY long time to balance out. You have to have run into a villain who will raise/call it off with worse more often than you run into someone who raise/calls it off with better. Now, pretend you had KK on the river and this hand becomes a lot more interesting.
Posted by CoxyLboro

umm i was between folding and shoving

villian had 64 - didnt want to say as felt it would make this look results orientated.

Unknown

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : umm i was between folding and shoving villian had 64 - didnt want to say as felt it would make this look results orientated.
Posted by The_Don90

I don't understand how you can 'between' folding and shoving, between folding and shoving there is 'calling'. 

tapeworm

We can not be afraid of a bigger set at 4nl.....hardly ever. Don, i respect you as a player because we play the same level and you are a damn good player (tilt problems, but damn good lol).......BUT, you have posted two hands (since i have been back on sky two weeks ago or so) in the clinic where normally you would snap it off or raise, and you have posted in A51 insinuating online poker/ sky is rigged.

Whats Up dude????

The amount of time here you are behind is minimal to the amount you win by raising.....i dont want to shove though because of the limping static across all streets. but if he calls a raise and flips over a bigger set or straight then lucky boy......get him next hand. Wouldnt shove though, we have no info on hand

waynec

I can not really see how we can fold here, he could think 2 pair is good here.... the call has to be the way as a number of hands beat you which he could have due to the limpt pot pre. call and spit IMO

The_Don90

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise:

In Response to Re: NL4 river set in limped mw pot checked down overbet facing re-raise : I don't understand how you can 'between' folding and shoving, between folding and shoving there is 'calling'. 
Posted by CoxyLboro

thats the exact reason why i called.

I think what i mean, sorry im very bad at wording things.

My mind was torn in one side i felt his range weighted into beating me and therefore its a fold. The other side said he could be doing this with much worse something like 78 or a slowplayed K etc. Which might call a shove.

Therrefore i decided the flat was best at the time but the more i thought about it i wasnt sure. Hense why i posted in the clinic.

I suspect ive worded this terrible again.