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HU SnG's, Talk to me.

edited January 2012 in The Poker Clinic

Well I've had a go at the DYM's for a month and been fairly successful, in that I reached my highest ever profit playing them (all down to JC), and could easily carry on next month and most likely progress into the £5.50's and beyond given volume and sufficient run good but I feel like I should be at least trying to improve my game and that's not going to happen playing the Devil's game. 


So on to the HU SnG’s, fair to say I haven’t got a lot of experience, played a few back in one of the first Forum head’s up tourneys and recently in Lamberts comp where I put down some major ownage on the Deb-dobs and should have got through the next round (but I’m not bitter ;)). Apart from that and a few MTT HU’s I’m a blank canvas.


In terms of BRM I have a rough plan to put £50 towards it and start at the £1.05 level so ~50BIs but to be honest not sure if that’s enough or too conservative so advice would be good. Also on the numbers side the lower rake is defo appealing (on a side-note Russian roulette rake is double that of normal games lol :S) meaning I would need >52.5% to be in profit which sounds do-able, well unless I run like Greghogg. In terms of choice of game it looks like Hyper’s or Turbo’s, can’t imagine playing those 10 min blind ones long term lol.


Now on to the main part of the thread, strategy, I know it’s all about aggression, raise, raise, then raise some more but I need more detail. Is it fair to say that raising EVERY button is a legitimate play (at least against an unknown to test him/her) and then what hands can you call a 3bet with and is that even possible in a fast format and for that matter what hands is it good to 3bet with and then presumably call off, not sure if you can 3bet/fold much or can you? As for limping pre I know that’s terribad so it doesn’t exist as an option but what hands would calling be ok with OOP let’s say we’re readless early e.g. so 67s/J10o/33 ok or just bin ‘em? Also late on when you’re ~10bbs which I presume happens frequently is it JUST shove/fold or is there ANY room for minraise/folding and if it is shove/fold what percentage are you doing it, just enough to stay level stacked or relentlessly as ‘they never have a hand’ ?


Ok now the logistical side, basically info on how many are playable an hour either single table or multi, as for multi I can’t imagine me doing more than 2 at the start and probably just 1 for first few sessions but is it pretty hard to multi with being involved in every hand? Do these games (at the lower levels at least) run regularly throughout the day so register and play within 1-2 minutes and it does it just follow the usual poker time-table of better games later at night. Also on that concept of good games is a lot of this about finding one of those players who just keeps wanting rematches (the kind of sad fools who rebuy in freerolls) and just bleeding them dry?


Well that’s it for now, probably more questions I’ve missed out but for the time being this will have to do.


Thanks for any replies :)

Comments

  • edited December 2011
    In Response to HU SnG's, Talk to me.:
     I know it’s all about aggression, raise, raise, then raise some more but I need more detail. Is it fair to say that raising EVERY button is a legitimate play (at least against an unknown to test him/her) and then what hands can you call a 3bet with and is that even possible in a fast format and for that matter what hands is it good to 3bet with and then presumably call off, not sure if you can 3bet/fold much or can you? As for limping pre I know that’s terribad so it doesn’t exist as an option
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    it's a long post, with loads of talking points, i'll prob post more as the thread develops, but first time round the highlighted bits jumped out @ me.....

    if you're thinking about playing lower levels, your opponents are going to be as bad as, if not worse than those you encountered playing nl4.

    remember the key thing @ nl4 was value town....

    same applies here, the only difference is your value ranges are wider pre & post flop.....

    we're still opening/3betting, c betting, n getting it in 90% of the time for value rather than bluffs, just our pre n post flop value ranges are wider n include 2nd/3rd pair etc.(oppo dependant)

    limping the button is a very valid play against alot of low stakes villains. i still use it quite often against bad regs @ £11 & £21

    to rule it out as a big 'no-no' will just be making life hard for yourself against passive players who defend their blind too much (prob gonna be ur most common type of opponent)

    you're gonna have a big edge post flop v most of ur oppos, so it would make sense to play as many flops as poss in position against them. 

    dnt be scared to bet/fold alot for value, often in some thin spots (they will feel really thin for a while until you get some kinda feel for the game, then you'll start thinking of them as standard).

    -----------------------------

    loads more to go @ but think the most important thing to get out of your head asap is that limping is always bad, it deffo isnt!!!!



  • edited December 2011

    The small stakes heads up sit and gos are some of the easiest games in all of poker. Lots of players join these games without any real idea of what they are doing. You will run into the players who are either trying to get better so that they can play higher stakes, or players who are just after a quick fix and are trying to double their money. No matter who you are playing, the same basic approach should be applied.

    Don’t try to force anything until the blinds start to diminish your stack. There is plenty of time to go after uncontested pots in the beginning of a SNG. If you are playing in a turbo/ultra turbo SNG, you have no choice but to pick up the pace rather quickly, but you will still have a chance to play a few hands with postflop strategy in mind.

    The overall goal in these limits should be to pick apart the other player’s weaknesses. Now, this is your goal in any form of poker, but it is exponentially easier when you only have to beat one player. If you can identify some areas of weakness, it will be somewhat easy to capitalize on them. Go for the kill after you have established an edge.

    Don’t try to win the whole match within the first few hands (unless you can do it safely). Work on chipping away at your opponent and pushing them to the edge. Because players at these limits are not all that experienced, you will be able to force your opponents into mistakes just as easily as you will be able to outplay them.

    The mid stakes and high stakes heads up sit and gos are where the games start to really get tough. If you haven’t been able to beat the small stakes games over a significant sample size, don’t even waste your time trying to compete at these limits. The players that you will face in mid stakes games have practiced over thousands and thousands of games, and that is at the very minimum.

    consistency is the absolute key in these games. Beyond this, you need to be consistent with some very advanced plays. If you can’t pick off light three bets with regularity, the chances are that your opponent will continue making that play. There isn’t a massive edge to be gained once you hit the mid stakes games, so your only chance of winning is to actually be very skilled yourself.

    The strategy in these games is not so much taught as it is learned. There are many varying styles that can each work well. Dealing with variance is a necessity because it will smack you on a repeated basis.

  • edited December 2011
    Do not rule out the standerd SnG's also. If you have a solid patient game these games are soo easy and really good value.

    Players get frustrated playing 75 bbs deep and make really poor moves. Also alot of opponents are very fishy so like Dohhhhh says just take them to value town. 


  • edited December 2011
    In Response to Re: HU SnG's, Talk to me.:
    In Response to HU SnG's, Talk to me. : it's a long post, with loads of talking points, i'll prob post more as the thread develops, but first time round the highlighted bits jumped out @ me..... if you're thinking about playing lower levels, your opponents are going to be as bad as, if not worse than those you encountered playing nl4. remember the key thing @ nl4 was value town.... same applies here, the only difference is your value ranges are wider pre & post flop..... we're still opening/3betting, c betting, n getting it in 90% of the time for value rather than bluffs, just our pre n post flop value ranges are wider n include 2nd/3rd pair etc.(oppo dependant) limping the button is a very valid play against alot of low stakes villains. i still use it quite often against bad regs @ £11 & £21 to rule it out as a big 'no-no' will just be making life hard for yourself against passive players who defend their blind too much (prob gonna be ur most common type of opponent) you're gonna have a big edge post flop v most of ur oppos, so it would make sense to play as many flops as poss in position against them.  dnt be scared to bet/fold alot for value, often in some thin spots (they will feel really thin for a while until you get some kinda feel for the game, then you'll start thinking of them as standard). ----------------------------- loads more to go @ but think the most important thing to get out of your head asap is that limping is always bad, it deffo isnt!!!!
    Posted by DOHHHHHHH
    This is exactly why I made the thread as this is something I would never have thought about trying so straight away I'm learning but could you perhaps give a loose range that fits into limping rather than raising. I presume small pairs, suited conns but how high do the connectors go, J10 max?
  • edited December 2011
    personally small pp and suited connectors are raising hands mate, hu the value of these are a lot bigger. played a lot of hu at the level you are thinking about back in the summer last year on another site. your game (being ubber tight) will def need to open up. think you will find it very incomfortable to start with. but being a good play im sure you will adapt. my problem was i played a lot of hu before playing cash and i ended up bring my pre flop range into 6 seaters, hence a tad on the loose side :-)

  • edited December 2011
    all depends on the villain, the stacks and the blinds....

    if you read ur dym AK thread potatoooooo (who is a 'good' hu hyper player from experience) totally disagrees with me btw.

    ull learn pretty quickly that game flow in hu is rly important, which is why i only 1 table 95% of the time. sumtimes a limp just feels right.....

    giving a range is hard coz most hands r playable u can pretty much do what you want hu n play with freedom, be creative etc n as 'potatooooo' said, so much depends on ur oppo.

    suited hands r good to limp against loose donks, hands which connect with alot of flops really!

    try raising first though, min raise is fine otb. then adapt accordingly.

    i wudnt limp pairs coz no matter what comes on the board uv got solid showdown value hu and position to control the hand.
  • edited December 2011
    Talk to me when ya said that was it meant to be from phone jacker terry tibbs :)
  • edited January 2012
    Well first day and a pretty poor one in terms of profit (down £8.80) but variance was a real killer with so many AK v KQ type hands going against me and then the A3 v Q4 type ones, which all be it only 60-40 do get annoying. Still not a massive issue though and I was down early when starting the DYM's and came back so will just keep going till I go broke, and if I don't go broke by the 1st Feb then it's a success (well kinda lol)

    There are positives as well, I certainly feel myself thinking a lot more in these than DYM's which is good, they're almost like another little puzzle that needs to be solved.

    Also the rake is obvz another benefit that will become more prominant over a larger volume.

    Oh and if anyone has some spare searches on SS could you check I've played exactly 56 games as I'm not sure if I missed a few games out.



  • edited January 2012
    No offence dude BUT major ownage ?? ya fffin donked on me twice when behind , lol post the hh's are ya avin a ffffin laugh or what ??

    PS ya say ya shoulda got through to next round ??

    Ya beat me ya fffin idiot

    ffs mate get it right
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: HU SnG's, Talk to me.:
    No offence dude BUT major ownage ?? ya fffin donked on me twice when behind , lol post the hh's are ya avin a ffffin laugh or what ?? PS ya say ya shoulda got through to next round ?? Ya beat me ya fffin idiot ffs mate get it right
    Posted by debdobs_67
    Against DJBlacke, debby. :)
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: HU SnG's, Talk to me.:
    Well first day and a pretty poor one in terms of profit (down £8.80) but variance was a real killer with so many AK v KQ type hands going against me and then the A3 v Q4 type ones, which all be it only 60-40 do get annoying. Still not a massive issue though and I was down early when starting the DYM's and came back so will just keep going till I go broke, and if I don't go broke by the 1st Feb then it's a success (well kinda lol) There are positives as well, I certainly feel myself thinking a lot more in these than DYM's which is good, they're almost like another little puzzle that needs to be solved. Also the rake is obvz another benefit that will become more prominant over a larger volume. Oh and if anyone has some spare searches on SS could you check I've played exactly 56 games as I'm not sure if I missed a few games out.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    UsernameGames PlayedAv. ProfitAv. StakeAv. ROITotal ProfitFormAbility /100NetworkFilter
    Dudeskin8         56$0  $2  -15%-$14  -N/ASkyPoker<1Day SNG Only
    Make sure your shoving range 8-12xbb is wide enough btw, if you're not getting it in bad from the button v often ur being too tight or xtremely lucky.
  • edited January 2012
    Well I'm using the same sort of stack size shove ranges as in MTT's right now, 15/30 - 300, 20/40 - 400, basically not letting myself get any lower than 10bbs, so quite a few times got it in bad too but pretty sure I lost more when I was ahead then got lucky in but that could be just positive thinking lol
  • edited January 2012

    Thats ok ^^^^

    What ranges r u shoving tho? Say you got 330 otb @ 15/30 v unknown......

    Also if you get a semi competent player (unlikely I know) who is min raising the button alot, what's your reshipping range with 14-20xbb?

    Hes m/r a few times @ 10/20 you've defended a couple of times & folded pre a couple of times. 

    He mins again 1st hand of 15/30. No reads on how he responds to 3bets or shoves. You got 400 behind (14xbigs) on your bb. Wat range r u shoving here?
  • edited January 2012
    330 otb v unknown probably 22+/Q8+/K5+/A2+, although might just be K2+.

    Reship 22+/QJ+/KJ+/A5+, but that's probz too tight. 
  • edited January 2012
    ahhhhhhh kool thats fine. 

    Dunno if it's perfect (I dunno wat perfect is. & it depends on oppo etcetc bla bla) but it's not alarmingly tight.

    n1, get grinding. gl!


  • edited January 2012
    Should you be happy about getting all in pre flop regularly with these games? I played 3 $30 games the other week just to see how I did and lost them all by getting all in pre-flop in a coin flip situation and losing.

    for the record they were: my 66 vs his KQ; my AK vs his QQ; my 55 vs his KJ

    First two happened within the first eight hands (think the first was actually the first hand) and the second was after I had been gradually winning small pots and I had 4:3 chip. After that I got my aces cracked by a flopped straight.

    My point is, how much of an edge can you really have over players in a heads up game where the money goes all in pre-flop so frequently? And is it enough to beat the rake?
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: HU SnG's, Talk to me.:
    Should you be happy about getting all in pre flop regularly with these games? I played 3 $30 games the other week just to see how I did and lost them all by getting all in pre-flop in a coin flip situation and losing. for the record they were: my 66 vs his KQ; my AK vs his QQ; my 55 vs his KJ First two happened within the first eight hands (think the first was actually the first hand) and the second was after I had been gradually winning small pots and I had 4:3 chip. After that I got my aces cracked by a flopped straight. My point is, how much of an edge can you really have over players in a heads up game where the money goes all in pre-flop so frequently? And is it enough to beat the rake?
    Posted by jugglegeek
    These r all coolers.....

    I think a 4/5% ROI will be the highest you can expect to achieve long term with 5% rake.

    3% prob more realistic
  • edited January 2012
    played 10 games the other night against a fellow tkp player, and i found the more we played the easier it was to win against them. think if you can find players who want to rematch you all the time then that % you put up jj can be quite a bit higher.
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: HU SnG's, Talk to me.:
    played 10 games the other night against a fellow tkp player, and i found the more we played the easier it was to win against them. think if you can find players who want to rematch you all the time then that % you put up jj can be quite a bit higher.
    Posted by pod1
    Yeh but this is short term Podlaaaaaa.....

    Against fish you could have a 10% ROI.

    Against some regs u could make 3%

    Against good regs u wanna break even so 0% ROI.

    Sum players will be better than u and you'll have a -2/3%

    But overall, over thousands of games at different opponents, 3-5% is gonna be your target.
  • edited January 2012
    Tip -  Using 2 hands to pour a pint in level 1 against a giant fish is -ev

    Time is precious.

    Just learnt that the hard way :(
  • edited January 2012
    Wow playing 6-handed after HU for 2 days is TOUGH, I want to raise with like every hand, even K3s UTG looked so sexy...
  • edited January 2012
    dudes turning into a lag, seen it all now lol

  • edited January 2012
    Are you not throwing away any skill edge away playing these HU Turbos ?

    Don't know how you make these profitbale but good luck.

    Intrigued with calling/shoving ranges in these HU turbos

  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: HU SnG's, Talk to me.:
    dudes turning into a lag, seen it all now lol
    Posted by pod1
    It is amazing how boring 6-max can be once you've tasted HU, going back to DYM's now would kill me lol
  • edited January 2012
    i played solid for 2 mnths hu (normal mind) and i loved it, but i think th hypers are a bit too quick. tbf it will help you loosen up (as you have noticed) just adapt quickly when you come back!!!

  • edited January 2012
    Just had some amazing run good, liturally EVERY 70-30 against me I won, it actually became quite embarressing after a while lol

    But along with some solid play I'm now into profit for the first time since starting by £1.90 after 122 games finally winning more than I've lost 65-57, I also know it can turn in an instant but for now it's better than running a loss. ;)

    One of the main things I've noticed about these is it's ALL about latching on to one awful player and just bleeding him for all he's worth. Had one earlier must have been 6-1 before he called it quits and when you're playing those guys the momentum just becomes amazing win, win, win so quickly and the guy just can't bring him self to stop so just keeps donating but still playing limp/call bad poker lol. 
  • edited January 2012
    i said that ealier dude. that win rate can certainly swing with the right players who just wont let go. well done by the way in bringing it back. think you can get 1000 games in this mnth?
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: HU SnG's, Talk to me.:
    i said that ealier dude. that win rate can certainly swing with the right players who just wont let go. well done by the way in bringing it back. think you can get 1000 games in this mnth?
    Posted by pod1
    Yeah that's the aim aim which is 32 a day and very do-able, although with the new C4P points system I won't just be stopping like last month if I get there early. 
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