Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?

JackoG9

Tough spot, but can I fold here?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
JackoG9	Small blind		£0.04	£0.04	£8.53
Strider_78	Big blind		£0.08	£0.12	£5.64
	Your hole cards	Q Q
alcando	Raise		£0.24	£0.36	£9.57
soff	Fold
TheRat1	Fold
g_dawwwg	Fold
JackoG9	Raise		£0.72	£1.08	£7.81
Strider_78	Fold
alcando	All-in		£9.57	£10.65	£0.00
JackoG9	??

debdobs_67

Id be suprised if THIS villian does not have KK or AA , but notes aint always correct )

Dudeskin8

I ain't folding this, looks like AK to me.

IDONKCALLU

even if it is ak ya not that far ahead and u are guessing i think its a fold here would 10 10 or jj  go all in here i ver much doubt here so ya guessing he has ak and thats at best even then ya marginal favourite i would fold here for alot of reasons 

pod1

i would let this go.

grantorino

1. You should know the answer to that question before you 3bet

2. The answer should nearly always be call, otherwise you prob shouldnt be 3betting. To 3b/f QQ 100BB deep you would need very clear reads on his flatting and raising ranges

rancid

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

1. You should know the answer to that question before you 3bet 2. The answer should nearly always be call, otherwise you prob shouldnt be 3betting. To 3b/f QQ 100BB deep you would need very clear reads on his flatting and raising ranges
Posted by grantorino

+1 if you considering 3 bet folding QQ then just flat tbh

pod1

not sure here gt. the vill 4 x utg with any half decent hand, im not flatting with qq to that kinda bet (at this level) . but the 4 bet all in changes my thinking  of how strong the qs are now. people dont 3 bet f very often (if ever ) at nl 8 so he aint jamming to get you off this hand . if qq is flipping here hes lucky.

rancid

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

not sure here gt. the vill 4 x utg with any half decent hand, im not flatting with qq to that kinda bet (at this level) . but the 4 bet all in changes my thinking  of how strong the qs are now. people dont 3 bet f very often (if ever ) at nl 8 so he aint jamming to get you off this hand . if qq is flipping here hes lucky.
Posted by pod1

Just depends what oppo 4 bet shoves 100 bb deep, otherwise can't see how we fold here

Like GT states, need really good solid reads to consider folding here - I think it's s standard 3 bet spot/get it in

grantorino

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

not sure here gt. the vill 4 x utg with any half decent hand, im not flatting with qq to that kinda bet (at this level) . but the 4 bet all in changes my thinking  of how strong the qs are now. people dont 3 bet f very often (if ever ) at nl 8 so he aint jamming to get you off this hand . if qq is flipping here hes lucky.
Posted by pod1

just because you beat his opening range doesnt mean you should 3bet

When we 3bet he can fold/call/4bet. We dont want him to fold, if we are 3b/f we need to be pretty sure he only 4bets better and has a pretty wide flatting range (maybe this happens enough at 8NL but I wouldnt like to assume it readless). Otherwise we almost turn QQ into a bluff

pod1

what do you think the range is for 90% of people to 4 bet jam?

rancid

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

what do you think the range is for 90% of people to 4 bet jam?
Posted by pod1

There are benefits to flat here with QQ to get value from worse, even though worse will flat your 3 bet very probably anyway - but at the same time you have to think about your own perceived 3 betting range )

If your 3 betting QQ, then get it in - if you don't then how do you get action on AA/KK ?

a very small percentage of the time you can 3 bet fold where oppo range is always only KK/AA
Yet again depends what oppo's 4 bet shove range is

without reads - QQ - auto stack off

pod1

i must me such a nit, yes i auto stack ks here but not qs. what  you doing with jj rancid pre and post?

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

i must me such a nit, yes i auto stack ks here but not qs. what  you doing with jj rancid pre and post?
Posted by pod1

So if this same hand happened to you at NL30 you'd fold against a random ?!

rancid

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

i must me such a nit, yes i auto stack ks here but not qs. what  you doing with jj rancid pre and post?
Posted by pod1

If I post all my ranges, would that be ok )

Depends, dynamic/oppo

v random with no reads, may just flat

pod1

i think you highlighted the wrong bit dude, but good question. the game is a litle more subtle at nl30 and i a goodish player wouldnt  do this (standard 4 bet ) you have more experience at this level than i do, but like i said before most people dont 3 bet  fold so he is doing this wanting you to call. 

back to would i call at nl30 mmmmm, depends how he has played whilst on the table and how he percieves my game.

rancid

Bottom line is if your playing against players that only 4 bet AA/KK then that's one easy table )

You could effectively 4 bet all 3 bets and make it profitable )

pod1

apart from like i say rancid people dont 3 bet fold so as long as you dont 4bet light you should do just fine lol

rancid

no one said it was ez

IDONKCALLU

jacks dont shove here neither do 10s u have reads that they are a looose aggro player your guessing they have ak so is it worth a guess for a 56/44 shot not for me i fold this for sure 

gracie24

go with your gut. In most cases I would fold unless I had a very good read

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

i think you highlighted the wrong bit dude, but good question. the game is a litle more subtle at nl30 and i a goodish player wouldnt  do this (standard 4 bet ) you have more experience at this level than i do, but like i said before most people dont 3 bet  fold so he is doing this wanting you to call.  back to would i call at nl30 mmmmm, depends how he has played whilst on the table and how he percieves my game.
Posted by pod1

No offence but these sort of lines tilt me so bad, it's like your saying we're a bunch of mindless Neandathols running around with clubs, I've seen NL30 hands on Mastercash and many are very similar to NL4. 

pod1

not designed to tilt you dude , just fact. of coarse theres some crass play, i should know i do it quite regularly but on the whole the standard is better and you cant deny that. better hands are camouflaged poorer hands are played better fact. MOST people have earnt the right to play higher levels hence the play is on the whole better. come on dude even you say there is a big difference in nl10 to nl4 why would you possibly think nl30 is worse than that!

rancid

NL4/NL30/NL100

You still have QQ )

The only question is what is oppo 4 bet shoving !

Think higher up it would just be a 4 bet raise and not a shove

Shove essentially could be anything 88+ AK
And we go full circle, need solid reads here to fold

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

not designed to tilt you dude , just fact. of coarse theres some crass play, i should know i do it quite regularly but on the whole the standard is better and you cant deny that. better hands are camouflaged poorer hands are played better fact. MOST people have earnt the right to play higher levels hence the play is on the whole better. come on dude even you say there is a big difference in nl10 to nl4 why would you possibly think nl30 is worse than that!
Posted by pod1

Well it should be as it's over 7x the BI of NL4 and most people don't start out at NL30 unless thy have money to burn or start off knowing EVERYTHING about the game which is hard having never played it....

I didn't say it was worse, just that certain plays at NL30 and even higher are similar to NL4, people open limping UTG with junk for example. 

pod1

88+ really rancid, ruddy ell and you think im aggro!!

rancid

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8? : Well it should be as it's over 7x the BI of NL4 and most people don't start out at NL30 unless thy have money to burn or start off knowing EVERYTHING about the game which is hard having never played it.... I didn't say it was worse, just that certain plays at NL30 and even higher are similar to NL4, people open limping UTG with junk for example. 
Posted by Dudeskin8

Goes without saying there are bad players at all levels relatively speaking.

rancid

In Response to Re: Fold QQ pre flop at NL8?:

88+ really rancid, ruddy ell and you think im aggro!!
Posted by pod1

player dependant obviously but there some players at NL8 that will happily do this with mid prs !

pod1

pm me lol!!

grantorino

so an unknown at 8nl only shows up with KK+,AK? Give him JJ or about 8 more combos of Ax and its call. People definitely spew enough to call it off imo

you better be sure he flats pretty wide and shoves pretty narrow before you 3b/f this. Otherwise either 3b/c or flat the initial raise