Value fail: need to learn the rules

jugglegeek

After taking a shot at some higher stakes games on Stars and withdrawing some money for christmas period I'm back in the doldrums of NL4. Makes me happy because I'm winning more often thus not tilting as much.

What should I do on the river hear to get ALL the money off both players. If I call then x probably just calls too and I lose value, if I raise then x will likely shove for the rest of their stack but then player y will have to raise to permit me to shove unless I raise to a tiny amount to allow x's shove to count as a raise. If I shove then it's a pretty huge over bet and it might not get called.

I have no reads because I'm multi-tabling and have only just opened up this new table after a table broke. But I'm awear that y has a £9 stack which is either a sign that they are a competant player or that they have been running good.

Is this just a wierd situation that won't happen very often?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
YumYum111	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£1.87
x	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£2.06
	Your hole cards	5 5
y	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£9.13
vulcand	Fold
chopper34	Fold
jugglegeek	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£3.90
YumYum111	Fold
x	Check
Flop
		5 Q 6
x	Check
y	Bet		£0.07	£0.21	£9.06
jugglegeek	Call		£0.07	£0.28	£3.83
x	Call		£0.07	£0.35	£1.99
Turn
		9
x	Bet		£0.04	£0.39	£1.95
y	Raise		£0.16	£0.55	£8.90
jugglegeek	Raise		£0.52	£1.07	£3.31
x	Call		£0.48	£1.55	£1.47
y	Call		£0.36	£1.91	£8.54
River
		3
x	Bet		£0.04	£1.95	£1.43
y	Raise		£0.20	£2.15	£8.34
jugglegeek	Raise		£1.20	£3.35	£2.11
x	All-in		£1.43	£4.78	£0.00
y	Call		£1.27	£6.05	£7.07
jugglegeek	Call		£0.27	£6.32	£1.84
x	Show	Q A
y	Show	6 9
jugglegeek	Show	5 5
jugglegeek	Win	Three 5s	£5.84		£7.68

Unknown

In order to get more money in by the river, raise the flop. Also, make sure you can reshove over the shortstack shove on the river.

jugglegeek

In Response to Re: Value fail: need to learn the rules:

In order to get more money in by the river, raise the flop. Also, make sure you can reshove over the shortstack shove on the river.
Posted by CoxyLboro

What's the most I can bet on the river to be able to re-shove if he shoves? is it 70p because he has £1.43 left (a little over double that)? it seems that these situations happen so rarely that I struggle to understand what counts as a min raise. Especially after a raise.

Also I didn't raise the flop because I wanted to keep BOTH players in the hand. A check and a half pot bet after an open limp and a big blind check doesn't look like either player has much at the moment. Only draws out there at the moment are inside straight draws too. So it's either queen or not much at this point. Lucky for me y makes two pair on the turn.

EvilPingu

In Response to Re: Value fail: need to learn the rules:

In Response to Re: Value fail: need to learn the rules : What's the most I can bet on the river to be able to re-shove if he shoves? is it 70p because he has £1.43 left (a little over double that)? it seems that these situations happen so rarely that I struggle to understand what counts as a min raise. Especially after a raise. Also I didn't raise the flop because I wanted to keep BOTH players in the hand. A check and a half pot bet after an open limp and a big blind check doesn't look like either player has much at the moment. Only draws out there at the moment are inside straight draws too. So it's either queen or not much at this point. Lucky for me y makes two pair on the turn.
Posted by jugglegeek

You want the short stack to go all in, then to be able to set the other guy all in when the action gets back to you if he calls, right?

It's 20p to call, and you want the short stack all in for £1.43 and then to be able to shove into the other guy if he just calls. I think that going all in for anything less than a min raise counts as a call and other players can only call behind? 

In that case, I believe 81p is the maximum you can raise to if you want to then be able to shove when the action gets back around to you.

If you raise another 61p to 81p, then the minimum re-raise is another 61p (to £1.42), so when the short stack goes all in, you can still raise. 

However, if you raise to 82p, then the short stack has to re-raise another 62p (to £1.44, which he doesn't have) for it to count as a raise rather than a call, as he only has £1.43, his bet only counts as a call, you can both only call behind.

I'm pretty sure that's right, correct me if I'm wrong though

rancid

worse always calls at NL4, don't over complicate getting value

bet/raise - do what you gotta do to get money in sooner or later

always look to be shoving pot or less by river

jugglegeek

In Response to !:

worse always calls at NL4, don't over complicate getting value bet/raise - do what you gotta do to get money in sooner or later always look to be shoving pot or less by river
Posted by rancid

I guess you are right. I've been off online poker for the christmas period after I lost a lot trying to win back my loses at NL10 by playing those HU hypers.

I think I've spent too long playing NL10 where raising on such a dry flop there would fold out at least one of the players. Looking at the hands the players had it's possible that had I have made it 20p on the flop I would have kept both players in the hand.

After this I think it's difficult to get it all in in a semi-sensible way when the pot is only 9 big blinds going to the turn.

When I was regularly grinding these tables I would always have raise pre in this spot to 12p. Just because a 3x raise always gets called at NL4 and it makes it easier to get it all in on the river if I flop a set

Dudeskin8

100% raise flop.

100% raise turn (would be MUCH bigger if raise flop)

100% shove river (even though pot is smaller than stack), they will NOT be folding AQ lol