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Should I have called?

nug82nug82
edited January 2012 in The Poker Clinic
PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
nug82 Small blind  £0.02 £0.02 £6.87
SteveGB Big blind  £0.04 £0.06 £2.19
  Your hole cards
  • A
  • Q
     
hiphappy01 Call  £0.04 £0.10 £0.26
Talwrn Call  £0.04 £0.14 £2.09
rogers50 Fold     
J1MBOE Fold     
nug82 Raise  £0.14 £0.28 £6.73
SteveGB Call  £0.12 £0.40 £2.07
hiphappy01 All-in  £0.26 £0.66 £0.00
Talwrn Call  £0.26 £0.92 £1.83
nug82 Call  £0.14 £1.06 £6.59
SteveGB Call  £0.14 £1.20 £1.93
Flop
   
  • Q
  • 10
  • 7
     
nug82 Bet  £1.20 £2.40 £5.39
SteveGB Fold     
Talwrn All-in  £1.83 £4.23 £0.00
nug82 Call  £0.63 £4.86 £4.76
nug82 Show
  • A
  • Q
   
hiphappy01 Show
  • J
  • 3
   
Talwrn Show
  • 7
  • 7
   
Turn
   
  • 2
     
River
   
  • 6
     
Talwrn Win Three 7s £4.49  £4.49
What could I have done different?
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Comments

  • crasshcrassh
    edited January 2012
    You had to call.  The size of your flop bet (I'd have bet less, maybe 70-80p) meant you were commited to the pot.  With the cards as they are, you are in awful shape but often enough you are splitting, ahead or have more equity than you do in that spot.
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited January 2012
    Raise more pre at least 24p.

    If you have the option to reraise pre DO IT, I might just shove here with the weakness shown.

    Flop bit big but fine at NL4, rest cooler. 
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  • nug82nug82
    edited January 2012
    Thank you both
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  • HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I have called?:
    Thank you both
    Posted by nug82
    Not an expert, & good comments so far..

    What I would ask my self is at what different size of the Villains final push could you fold, I am certainly not folding, with stacks behind shown, even if you both, [well villain dependant really], had twice the stacks or maybe three times, but four that's now a decision?

    Hope you see what I mean, hypothectical obvs, but if betting stayed same, cause  What Villain got behind could change that I know!!

    But to answer simply you cannot fold any where there!! imho

    GL Nug! Hope u got ma pm back the other day!!
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  • HITMAN_RVHITMAN_RV
    edited January 2012
    ps, as in ma pm, You are welcome to Join!!
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I have called?:
    In Response to Re: Should I have called? : Not an expert, & good comments so far.. What I would ask my self is at what different size of the Villains final push could you fold, I am certainly not folding, with stacks behind shown, even if you both, [well villain dependant really], had twice the stacks or maybe three times, but four that's now a decision? Hope you see what I mean, hypothectical obvs, but if betting stayed same, cause  What Villain got behind could change that I know!! But to answer simply you cannot fold any where there!! imho GL Nug! Hope u got ma pm back the other day!!
    Posted by HITMAN_RV
    TPTK on the flop at NL4 is generally the nuts so folding it would need solid reads.
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  • ybyb
    edited January 2012
    i'd definitely be 4betting pre
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  • pod1pod1
    edited January 2012
    why would tptk be the nutz at nl4 and not other levels? dont they hit straights ,sets etc :-)
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  • rancidrancid
    edited January 2012
    raise more 28-32p

    with what they have behind and action - just shove when it comes back around

    as played - flop is ok
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  • crasshcrassh
    edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I have called?:
    raise more 28-32p with what they have behind and action - just shove when it comes back around as played - flop is ok
    Posted by rancid
    Why are people advocating such a big pre-flop raise?  Sorry, it makes no sense to me.  If this was £2-£4, no one would be saying raise to £32, why at these levels.  I'm guessing it is because you are trying to cut down on short term variance because someone calls for 10p and hits but that is very short sighted, you will get some annoying outcomes but long term, you want people calling with marginal/bad hands.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited January 2012
    raise bigger pre

    4bet and get it in (I think it wasnt an underraise?)

    Bet flop smaller and snap off a shove
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I have called?:
    In Response to Re: Should I have called? : Why are people advocating such a big pre-flop raise?  Sorry, it makes no sense to me.  If this was £2-£4, no one would be saying raise to £32, why at these levels.  I'm guessing it is because you are trying to cut down on short term variance because someone calls for 10p and hits but that is very short sighted, you will get some annoying outcomes but long term, you want people calling with marginal/bad hands.
    Posted by crassh
    These levels are all about getting value, if someone L/C's a 28p raise pre w/75o why would we only charge them 16p?

    Also with bigger pot made pre when we hit the nuts like here we can bet big again and get called by loads worse and win big moniez, when we miss we shut down.

    FWIW I've seen the big boys at £1.50/3 often raise bigger pre againt big whales as they know they can't fold a hand, it's very basic really.
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I have called?:
    In Response to Re: Should I have called? : These levels are all about getting value, if someone L/C's a 28p raise pre w/75o why would we only charge them 16p? Also with bigger pot made pre when we hit the nuts like here we can bet big again and get called by loads worse and win big moniez, when we miss we shut down. FWIW I've seen the big boys at £1.50/3 often raise bigger pre againt big whales as they know they can't fold a hand, it's very basic really.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    So we raise to 28p pre to c/f 2/3 of time? Surely if that is the case raising smaller is much better with these stacks
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited January 2012
    Not sure really but I'm defo not raising 4x like has to be min 5x-6x so can't see why 7x is that bad.

    Overall if I have the option I'm shoving pre when it gets back to me the 2nd time. 
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  • crasshcrassh
    edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I have called?:
    In Response to Re: Should I have called? : These levels are all about getting value, if someone L/C's a 28p raise pre w/75o why would we only charge them 16p? Also with bigger pot made pre when we hit the nuts like here we can bet big again and get called by loads worse and win big moniez, when we miss we shut down. FWIW I've seen the big boys at £1.50/3 often raise bigger pre againt big whales as they know they can't fold a hand, it's very basic really.
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    There are lots of assumptions in the top paragraph.  If you have a read on the player, then yes, play like this but it seems to be a general theme on this forum, raise big pre, not taking in to account the person you are playing against.  Also the play you are advocating (raise big pre, play big on the flop or shutdown) is so exploitable (in that it is so "basic"!!!  ;-)) by a semi reasonable player.

    RE the bottom paragraph.  All I can say is maybe Sky but I have seen tens of thousands of mid to high stake hands on other sites and never (that I can remember, someone may have done it for comedy value) seen a 8x raise pre from someone with a deep stack behind.


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  • rancidrancid
    edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Should I have called?:
    In Response to Re: Should I have called? : There are lots of assumptions in the top paragraph.  If you have a read on the player, then yes, play like this but it seems to be a general theme on this forum, raise big pre, not taking in to account the person you are playing against.  Also the play you are advocating (raise big pre, play big on the flop or shutdown) is so exploitable (in that it is so "basic"!!!  ;-)) by a semi reasonable player. RE the bottom paragraph.  All I can say is maybe Sky but I have seen tens of thousands of mid to high stake hands on other sites and never (that I can remember, someone may have done it for comedy value) seen a 8x raise pre from someone with a deep stack behind.
    Posted by crassh
    We talking about NL4 here where your always raising for value versus oppo's that will call with worse
    You only have to adapt if playing versus a REG tbh
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  • Dudeskin8Dudeskin8
    edited January 2012
    @ crassh - Seems I give this speech every week at some point but here we go again, deep breath.

    If you table select PROPERLY at NL4 you will NOT be playing against good players and hence they will NOT be able to exploit you, if you table select badly you WILL play against good players and hence they WILL be able to exploit you. 

    It really is very basic like you mention but luckily for us people playing NL4 have a very basic knowledge of the game so don't pick up on silly things like betting patterns.

    I didn't actually say 8x but w/e, the main point is if at £2/£4 there are 2 limps and you're in the SB with a strong hand you're going to make it minimum 5x right? My first post actually said 24p i.e 6x which I think is fair, others mentioned 32p 8x but in general we want it to raise bigger as they'll call with worse whic is good for us right?
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  • gracie24gracie24
    edited January 2012
    U can get yourself in a lot of pain oop. AQ is fine in position but when you flop tptk oop why not check to see what happens. If they check all the way and you win gr8 but if you run into the odd set then it is just throwing chips away. Have a little run by all means but falling in love with Q's is often painful(no homophobic intent).
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