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WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament...

OK, after the last post I put up like this I thought it was time for another hand discussion. Here's the setting.

Double Stack Tournament, Sky Poker. £11 buy-in. 4,000 starting chips, 10 minute blinds.

Stack sizes: You - 6,455 Opponent (Button) - 7,970. Other players at the table vary between 1100 and 6800, but this is largely irrelevant to the hand in question.

Your image: Loose Aggressive.

Opponent's image: Good regular player who you've played many times on the site. They know your game, you know theirs. They're solid but clever, you're loose but clever. If you're not a clever poker player, just pretend you are for a minute ;)

Setup: You've built a decent stack in the early goings of the tournament when the following hand comes up. You've been raising a lot preflop and are happy to see QQ in the cut off. The play folds to you and you make it 3x the BB to go (300) and the button, a the regular, who is capable of making plays, now makes it 800.

The blinds get out of the way and the action is back on you.

(Oh, and we're assuming a fold is out of the question with stacks so deep...)



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Comments

  • edited November 2009
    Stop go... call leaving you roughly 5.7k behind. You know he is loose so could be trying it on with any two cards or at the least Ace rag. So we are looking for no ace on the flop. If no King also, then it is time to shove all in on the flop.

    Not liking the shove pre-flop as he has raised so there is a chance (slight) he has AK/KK/AA/AQ so would call you anyway. Seeing the flop gives you some insurance that there is not an over card there.

    That's what I would do anyway :) Dave
  • edited November 2009
    Exactly the same as Grimstar unless you think with previos knowledge he will fold to shove all-in pre,only you know that from how the game as been going!
  • edited November 2009
    In Response to Re: WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament...:
    Stop go... call leaving you roughly 5.7k behind. You know he is loose so could be trying it on with any two cards or at the least Ace rag. So we are looking for no ace on the flop. If no King also, then it is time to shove all in on the flop. Not liking the shove pre-flop as he has raised so there is a chance (slight) he has AK/KK/AA/AQ so would call you anyway. Seeing the flop gives you some insurance that there is not an over card there. That's what I would do anyway :) Dave
    Posted by Grimstar30
    +1 except i'd check raise all-in on the flop if no A/K
  • edited November 2009
    Hi Dave,
    I dont think a call is the way to go as your opponent has position on you and could represent an ace or king on the flop and you would have to fold. Yes you would only put up a small amount of your stack but QQ is a premium hand.
    I voted for re-raising to 2400. This sends a message to him and if called means you can define his hand to a smaller range, and still have roughly 4000 chips or 35/40 bbs.
    I think it depends on how many chips you are willing to risk. Other than that just push the lot in, but that then lends itself to no return if they have kk, or aa.
    col
  • edited November 2009
    Id obviously play it wrong because im the only one to vote all in. 

    If I was to raise it to 2400 with nealry half my chips in the middle id feel pot commited and would put all my chips in after the flop anyway.

    I dont like to call as col says opponent has position on you, and could easily then bluff you off whats a great starting hand.

    So im going all in, hoping for a fold, if not just praying im not agaisnt kk or aa.

    Gareth
  • edited November 2009
    Call and get it in on a safe flop, unless you have some sick read on him holding AA KK, I might even min 4bet him here planning to call it off
  • edited November 2009
    Call and get it in on a safe flop, unless you have some sick read on him holding AA KK, I might even min 4bet him here planning to call it off
  • edited November 2009
    i  call  dave      would  like   to  see  the  flop   with  the qq
  • edited November 2009
    i think someone said it earlier, i'd call wait for the flop, no A OR K an i'd shove ;) but what do i know ..... still learnin to wipe me a s s in poker dave ;)
  • edited November 2009
    dodgy dodgy queens...lol   .i must be wrong cos im the only 1 whos votin to reraise to 1600..lolol.anyway for wat worth ile tell u why..i would be worried about him avin a monster i.e ..aa  ..kk. the reason. hes reraised my pritty strong raise..my way of thinkin is.if i reraised to 1600 and he went over the top of me agaiin in any way  he prob  as......i could still dek my hand and have enought chips left to have a chance..and i would dek... but if he just called my 1600 reraise and it floped no ace or king  id be all over the pot like a rash...lolol .in other words i would go all in.. so basicley i would reraise to ask the question as  there say.....
  • edited November 2009
    Hi Dave

    The opponent is a solid player and raises to 800 8x BB your gonna suspect a highish PP/AK, but, you still need to find out where you are, calling I feel would be dangerous always chance of a A or K hitting, reraise to between 15-2400, ask the question, because you are lose aggresive, your oppo is probs expecting the reraise, but must be wary of the fact you may well have a good hand, see what your oppo does, then re-evaluate, s/he calls, you get a flop, see what the flop brings then decide, if s/he re-reraises, fold, s/he is a solid player and very likely to have a bigger pair than you, simples ;)
  • edited November 2009
    here i always call and pray for a all ovber low flop say 7,2,J

    then if it comes such a flop i go all in, if the flop is a high flop or a paired flop then i usually ease a little.
  • edited November 2009
    Early in a double stack tournament and the consensus seems to be to move in on the flop if no A or K hits! I always seem to take the contrary view, but this is crackers.

    What will call your shove? A small set that's what. Nothing else will. Would you call with anything else in this kind of tournament?

    If no A or K flops, you should be value betting. Let the ace-rag pay to hit his ace, but don't blow your tournament against the small set.
  • edited November 2009
    i didn't shove
  • edited November 2009
    just call ,

    flop comes down below q ,

    1/2 bet pot ,

    by his reaction u know if hes kk / aa he will go over top .


    u still have enough chips 2 fold .
  • edited November 2009
    In Response to Re: WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament...:
    just call , flop comes down below q , 1/2 bet pot , by his reaction u know if hes kk / aa he will go over top . u still have enough chips 2 fold .
    Posted by IRISHROVER
    Ta-da!
  • edited November 2009
    Interesting stuff so far chaps. I guess one of the key things here that we're not discussing is the Villain's range of hands.

    * What do we think he's raising with? (Feel free to list them)
    * Which of those hands will he fold to a reraise of 2500?
    * Which ones will he fold if we shove all in?

    From there we might be able to figure out what exactly we should be doing. I am going to add that I think this is a genuinely interesting spot. I've had problems playing hands like TT, JJ and QQ out of position when an overcard hits, so it's good to see how others handle it too!
  • edited November 2009
    Taking into account your description of the Villain (and the fact he knows your looseish and aggressive) I would put him on A-10+ and medium pocket pairs. 

    I think he would fold the medium pairs but not the A-10+ range. 

    So I think he calls (2500) with A10-AJ-AQ-AK (maybe KQsuited) (0ff and suited) and would call with 1010 (perhaps) but not 99,88,77,66,55 (dont put him playing less than this) so its nearly 50/50 he folds. so assuming he calls, I would put him on an Ace. So If the Ace hits we are in the doo dooo.. and he will not fold to the shove as he thinks you are loose so prob doesnt put you on a monster pre with ur raise.

    So - calls, and shove on any Non-ace board. If he hits trips on a low card then you are just unlucky.


  • edited November 2009
    I reraise to 1500. I'm a decent player in his eyes so he has to take that into account and know its not air I'm doing it with. Yes he has odds to call me but if he now shoves or rereraises then I can define his hand simply, fold and have enough chips to continue. If he does flat call then I can readjust depending on the flop and his actions. It is a double stack, not velocity so I still have plenty of play if i fold to his rereraise to get back. A flat call serves nothing to defining his hand so thats a no no. Reraise too much and Im pot committed possibly against a dreaded overpair.

    The tournament itself imo defines the play here - its not a shove fest tourney which would probably alter by decision.
  • edited November 2009
    Flat, described opponent type will never 5b bluff but will c-bet almost 100% when the agressor in 3b pots.

    Don't really think this is close tbh
  • edited November 2009
    In Response to Re: WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament...:
    I reraise to 1500. I'm a decent player in his eyes so he has to take that into account and know its not air I'm doing it with. Yes he has odds to call me but if he now shoves or rereraises then I can define his hand simply, fold and have enough chips to continue. If he does flat call then I can readjust depending on the flop and his actions. It is a double stack, not velocity so I still have plenty of play if i fold to his rereraise to get back. A flat call serves nothing to defining his hand so thats a no no. Reraise too much and Im pot committed possibly against a dreaded overpair. The tournament itself imo defines the play here - its not a shove fest tourney which would probably alter by decision.
    Posted by phil12uk
    What is the advantage of 4b fold here?

    If he has like AQ or w/e and we expect him to 3b fold, then we kill our value from everything worse and only expect to be shoved on by better, then what is the purpose of our 4b? - cause its clearly not a bluff, but if we're folding to a shove and never expect to be flat called then its not for value either.

    4bing to "find out where we're at" is really, really not good.

    Flat call /> 4b/call > fold > 4b/fold
  • edited November 2009
    Shove pre.

    Even against a solid TAG you beat alot of his 3bet range IP. (AJs+, 88+)

    KK/AA its a cooler, you'll be called by AQ+ and JJ/TT if he thinks you're LAG.



    Calling is sooooo weak.
  • edited November 2009
    i voted shove.If i just call and then see a flop with an ace or king i am folding and have wasted a few chips.If i just raise again and my opponent shoves then i call and as Tikay says:"get em' in first"

    if i shove and my opponent folds then great,i have picked up a good amount of chips.If he calls the chance are i am no worse than racing so i am happy.
  • edited November 2009
    If he's a solid player and has re-raised you, a call is an appropiate reaction.

    More than likely he's probably got 1 over card and if the ace or king comes on the flop, possibly a value bet isn't out of the question? Of course your "donk betting" here but it could give you a good read on your opponents cards, and if he comes over the top you're looking at 40-50 big blings left in your stack.

    Im new on here and poker so please reply without looking down your nose at me :)

    Edit.

    Also if he's knows your a loose player, maybe he's putting you on nothing or is baiting you to re-raise him, and he's got the bullets or cowboys.
  • edited November 2009
    In Response to Re: WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament...:
    If he's a solid player and has re-raised you, a call is an appropiate reaction. More than likely he's probably got 1 over card and if the ace or king comes on the flop, possibly a value bet isn't out of the question? Of course your "donk betting" here but it could give you a good read on your opponents cards, and if he comes over the top you're looking at 40-50 big blings left in your stack. Im new on here and poker so please reply without looking down your nose at me :) Edit. Also if he's knows your a loose player, maybe he's putting you on nothing or is baiting you to re-raise him, and he's got the bullets or cowboys.
    Posted by HartshorN
    We're IP so how can we donk-bet? lol

    A donk-bet is when you call a raise OOP and then lead out on the next street
  • edited November 2009
    In Response to Re: WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament...:
    In Response to Re: WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament... : We're IP so how can we donk-bet? lol A donk-bet is when you call a raise OOP and then lead out on the next street
    Posted by LadyFingrs
    I was thinking this too...

    I'd still be shoving pre though! But then I'm bad.
  • edited November 2009
    My bad, mis-read i think, thought he was in the cut-off.


    Like i said still pretty new to this... Offering a opinion.
  • edited November 2009
    Good advice from acebarry. If I had followed that yesterday in BH, my QQ on button I might have stayed in. Oh well live and learn.
  • edited November 2009
    In Response to Re: WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament...:
    In Response to Re: WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament... : I was thinking this too... I'd still be shoving pre though! But then I'm bad.
    Posted by Deadluck
    Well, I don't hate shoving, it's just stack sizes are a bit akward for it...then again overbet shoving kind of make our hand look like mid PP's...

    idk, vs described villain i'm probably still flatting, but I definately don't hate shoving.
  • edited November 2009
    In Response to Re: WWYD? Pocket Queens, early in the tournament...:
    My bad, mis-read i think, thought he was in the cut-off. Like i said still pretty new to this... Offering a opinion.
    Posted by HartshorN
    I wasn't in anyway critiquing your opinion, just letting you know the proper terminology to avoid confusion later when ur discussing hands :)
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