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Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre

edited January 2012 in The Poker Clinic

Hey Guys.

MOT-ing my game again, been playing awful lately.  This was a headache moment from NLHE100.  All fine?  Left in the names as we don't get to see any hands but mine.

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
brasillego Small blind  £0.50 £0.50 £127.79
Curt360x27 Big blind  £1.00 £1.50 £97.50
varney Sit out     
 Your hole cards
  • A
  • K
   
LOL_RAISE Raise  £3.00 £4.50 £144.70
TommyD Raise  £8.00 £12.50 £178.89
rst19 Call  £8.00 £20.50 £160.40
brasillego Call  £7.50 £28.00 £120.29
Curt360x27 Fold     
LOL_RAISE Raise  £21.00 £49.00 £123.70
TommyD Fold     
rst19 Call  £16.00 £65.00 £144.40
brasillego Call  £16.00 £81.00 £104.29
Flop
  
  • 3
  • 6
  • 5
   
brasillego Check     
LOL_RAISE Bet  £39.00 £120.00 £84.70
rst19 Fold     
brasillego Fold     
LOL_RAISE Muck     
LOL_RAISE Win  £79.20  £163.90
LOL_RAISE Return  £39.00

Comments

  • edited January 2012
    i would be tempted to peel here against a very aggro reg myself a very disciplined laydown tommy 
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    i would be tempted to peel here against a very aggro reg myself a very disciplined laydown tommy 
    Posted by IDONKCALLU
    Cheers IDCU.

    Personally I think the peel is the worst option, I've got two cold 3bet calls behind, I'm OOP to one of them.  LOL Raise is well aggro obviously but can he continue that light here with what's behind me?
  • edited January 2012

    Question you should ask before 3betting, is whether you want to get it in preflop, 140 bigs deep,, against an UTG raiser who is positionally aware.

    If the answer is no, then flat the open, and play a pot.
  • edited January 2012
    not sure if serious?

    2/3 fist pumping  1/3 sigh imo ainec


    wager £147.70
  • edited January 2012
    I think the fold is the right thing to do here, if you 5 bet shove, are you going to get called by worse than AK? Probably not. Also, is Lol_Raise likely to raise UTG then 4 bet light with 3 players to act behind him, 2 of which will have position on him after the flop? I doubt it, although you know his game a million times better than I do.

    Just calling is horrible, because you've got 2 other players who have just cold called your 3 bet, if one of them 5 bets, you've basically donated another £16 to the pot. Also, what do you do most of the time when you miss the flop, knowing Lol_Raise will probably bet 100% of the time?

    I think this is a pretty good fold, tbh.

    When was this btw? If it's during Happy Hour, Lol_Raise would presumably be playing more tables and might play differently as a result?
  • edited January 2012
    get it in or flat initial raise


  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    not sure if serious? 2/3 fist pumping  1/3 sigh imo ainec wager £147.70
    Posted by beaneh
    It is serious, told you I was playng awful this month.  Levelled myself after the two cold callers came in behind that LOL has to have QQ+.  Silly of me.
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre : It is serious, told you I was playng awful this month.  Levelled myself after the two cold callers came in behind that LOL has to have QQ+.  Silly of me.
    Posted by TommyD
    This isn't awful, LOl_raise isnt doing this light with 2 cold callers and you 3betting an UTG open, fold and be happy about it.
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre : This isn't awful, LOl_raise isnt doing this light with 2 cold callers and you 3betting an UTG open, fold and be happy about it.
    Posted by CoxyLboro


    2/5 Live. 9 handed.

    ep limps LolR raises, next to act 3bets. EP peels. LolR 4bets, 3better folds. EP .... calls obv.


    dem flop 

    994 one spade. 

    ep check lolR bet ep 1.5xraise so minraise goes. lolr calls.

    turn 2 ep check lolr bets ep calls

    river A ep check lolr bets ep calls


    lolr happily shows dem 89o


    ...................


    does not win loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool

    35s ftw.



    the end.
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre : 2/5 Live. 9 handed. ep limps LolR raises, next to act 3bets. EP peels. LolR 4bets, 3better folds. EP .... calls obv. dem flop  994 one spade.  ep check lolR bet ep 1.5xraise so minraise goes. lolr calls. turn 2 ep check lolr bets ep calls river A ep check lolr bets ep calls lolr happily shows dem 89o ................... does not win loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool 35s ftw. the end.
    Posted by beaneh

    that would be the best hh ever if it didnt cost me like €1k. atleast he flatted river cos he likes me
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre : 2/5 Live. 9 handed. ep limps LolR raises, next to act 3bets. EP peels. LolR 4bets, 3better folds. EP .... calls obv. dem flop  994 one spade.  ep check lolR bet ep 1.5xraise so minraise goes. lolr calls. turn 2 ep check lolr bets ep calls river A ep check lolr bets ep calls lolr happily shows dem 89o ................... does not win loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool 35s ftw. the end.
    Posted by beaneh
    That's a live game Beano.  Everyone knows it's a crime against nature to bet/fold pre live.
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    Question you should ask before 3betting, is whether you want to get it in preflop, 140 bigs deep,, against an UTG raiser who is positionally aware. If the answer is no, then flat the open, and play a pot.
    Posted by jakally
    whilst this is generally good advice, do you not think 6max & the way the game is played now utg opens mean absolute **** lol. ive never had the pleasure of playin lol_raise but ive seen plenty & ive heard enough about him, to see this is an easy spot to make a play, especially if he knows OP is capable of raise foldin (he raise folded AK) he is never gonna be worried about the guys who tag along behind.

    takin the villian into account i get it in, for those who say flat, it is terrible, dont flat pre & dont flat the 4bet i much prefer your 3bet/fold than that
  • edited January 2012

    It works a bit like this.
    Lol_Raise is a v.good player, therefore the number of hands he plays in position 1 (UTG) will be less than in any other position, therefore his range is stronger.
    He is currently playing more tables than usual, therefore he will be a bit tighter in all positions.

    If he knows we know this (which Tommy D does), and we 3b in UTG+1, then, Lol_Raise can assume we have a very strong hand, therefore, most of the time when he 4bets us in this spot, he is doing it to get it in, and  has a decently tight range.
    Also, given we are a bit deeper (140 bigs) he is going to be getting it in a bit tighter, than if we were just 100BB's deep.

    As it happens, the action in the hand (i.e. cold callers of the 3 bet) means that he is happy to have a stab with the weaker hands in his range, to pick up the dead money, and for that reason, once we've 3 bet, we should probably go all the way.

    Of course Lol_Raise can still be opening UTG with 7 high, and 4 betting with the same, but it's just less likely than in any other position.

    As to whether flatting AK in these spots is terrible, if we did it all of the time it would be, but there is a benefit to strengthening calling ranges by using the top of our range to call in some spots, where we may normally raise.
  • edited January 2012

    If your hand reading like Phil Galfond, then sure go ahead take your AK to the flop 4 ways and play what will generally be a difficult spot unless you happen to flop the nuts.

    Don't think lolraise's range is too predictable here just because he's UTG, I reckon he can/will profitably 4 bet lots of hands that hes opened with in this spot if the two rec's have been checkfolding alot post flop and he thinks TD is gonna fold all but AA/KK/AK/ (QQ). In this case TD even folded AK which I'm sure is probably suprising to lolraise.

  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    It works a bit like this. Lol_Raise is a v.good player, therefore the number of hands he plays in position 1 (UTG) will be less than in any other position, therefore his range is stronger. He is currently playing more tables than usual, therefore he will be a bit tighter in all positions. If he knows we know this (which Tommy D does), and we 3b in UTG+1, then, Lol_Raise can assume we have a very strong hand, therefore, most of the time when he 4bets us in this spot, he is doing it to get it in, and  has a decently tight range. Also, given we are a bit deeper (140 bigs) he is going to be getting it in a bit tighter, than if we were just 100BB's deep. As it happens, the action in the hand (i.e. cold callers of the 3 bet) means that he is happy to have a stab with the weaker hands in his range, to pick up the dead money, and for that reason, once we've 3 bet, we should probably go all the way. Of course Lol_Raise can still be opening UTG with 7 high, and 4 betting with the same, but it's just less likely than in any other position. As to whether flatting AK in these spots is terrible, if we did it all of the time it would be, but there is a benefit to strengthening calling ranges by using the top of our range to call in some spots, where we may normally raise.
    Posted by jakally
    +1

    Given that fact the he can make these plays with ATC UTG make it worthwhile to get in
    The question is though, does it make it profitbale enough long term v this kind of play as when he has the hand he is repping we lose a chunk, when he folds to our 4 or 5 bet we only win a little
    If he only makes the play with ATC 10% of the time then emmmmmmmmm

    +EV ?
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    If your hand reading like Phil Galfond, then sure go ahead take your AK to the flop 4 ways and play what will generally be a difficult spot unless you happen to flop the nuts.
    Posted by NColley

    This is where people's thinking can get a little flawed.
    They are happy to flat with AQ, or AJs, but not AK.
    Well surely AK is a better hand to take a flop with (sometimes) than AQ or AJ, and therefore easier to play?

  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre : This is where people's thinking can get a little flawed. They are happy to flat with AQ, or AJs, but not AK. Well surely AK is a better hand to take a flop with (sometimes) than AQ or AJ, and therefore easier to play?
    Posted by jakally
    I wouldn't be flatting those hands with 2 loose passives behind (think we can assume that they are loose passive given the way they played the hand), I would be 3 betting for value alot of the time until the other regs on the table begin to notice that I am getting a little out of line and start adjusting. Even though our position on the table sucks we still want to play lots of pots vs the fish even oop to them right?
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre : I wouldn't be flatting those hands with 2 loose passives behind (think we can assume that they are loose passive given the way they played the hand), I would be 3 betting for value alot of the time until the other regs on the table begin to notice that I am getting a little out of line and start adjusting. Even though our position on the table sucks we still want to play lots of pots vs the fish even oop to them right?
    Posted by NColley
    You may be right, in this specific spot, 3 betting may be much better than flatting, but there are spots where I am happy to play a pot with AK.
  • edited January 2012
    id only 3b that size if it was to induce tbh, with the two people flatting behind theres alot of 'dead' money in the pot... im risking 21 to win 28 with the 4bet which is insanely good for 4bets (in normal situation it goes roughly 3x->10x->24x  in which case im risking 21 to win 14.5),
  • edited January 2012
    In Response to Re: Line check - Cash - Folding AKo Pre:
    id only 3b that size if it was to induce tbh, with the two people flatting behind theres alot of 'dead' money in the pot... im risking 21 to win 28 with the 4bet which is insanely good for 4bets (in normal situation it goes roughly 3x- />10x- />24x  in which case im risking 21 to win 14.5),
    Posted by LOL_RAISE
    I agree with your maths in theory but I disagree that can be applied here from a practical stand point.  I didn't have many notes on the two guys behind me but after seeing them cold call my 3bet and a couple of other passive plays at the table there's no way that is getting through pre.  At least one will call most of the time if I fold, and you'll always need at least one more bullet if you're light/miss the board.  Also if they hit/half hit the board they may be the kind of passives to always find a hand they are beating and get it in.

    My 3bet sizing was to induce.  The plan changed as your 4bet size might as well have had 'shove me' printed on it.  This is where the self levelling came into play.  You've put me in a lovely tough spot as flatting the 4bet for me is probably the worst option and we're in stack committing territory if I 5bet.  You've bet an amount that IMO has little chance of getting through all three players and you're more than good enough to know this.  In play I felt it was a bet to induce me rather than a light 4bet.  I could well be wrong and you were planning to fire any flop as well if flatted, if so, very nicely done.  In fact either way very nicely played.

    Also I agree with most of what Jakally has said.  Flatting a first raise sometimes with AK is a very good idea which I do employ.
  • edited January 2012
    great thread with some great contributions.

    i think i prob shove the Ak but looks so marginal

    would be interested if people would play JJ or QQ differently in the same spot???
  • edited January 2012
    hadnt really paid much attention to the cold callers prior to this hand tbh, too many tables/ too tired. i think atleast 1 will peel pretty often but will play incredibly fit/fold postflop that i wouldnt be too worried. u were drawing pretty dead on this flop fwiw
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