Right to call down?

gracie24

someone please let me know whether I was right to keep calling to hit the Ace or the flush which i thought would both win.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
howfenite	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£4.25
gracie24	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£3.09
	Your hole cards	A 8
webbk	Raise		£0.12	£0.18	£3.78
mallett69	Fold
TF	Fold
MICRET49	Call		£0.12	£0.30	£3.39
howfenite	Fold
gracie24	Call		£0.08	£0.38	£3.01
Flop
		7 6 2
gracie24	Bet		£0.38	£0.76	£2.63
webbk	Fold
MICRET49	Raise		£0.76	£1.52	£2.63
gracie24	Call		£0.38	£1.90	£2.25
Turn
		Q
gracie24	Check
MICRET49	Bet		£1.90	£3.80	£0.73
gracie24	Call		£1.90	£5.70	£0.35
River
		4
gracie24	Check
MICRET49	Check
gracie24	Show	A 8
MICRET49	Show	J J
MICRET49	Win	Pair of Jacks	£5.27		£6.00

AMYBR

Again, with your stack relative to action I cant ship it quick enough.

Be interested to hear what others say though.

I am mainly T player so think in terms of stacks.  Some might say only called beat here.  But we arent flatting the raise on flop to burn it if opening better jams (+ not folding), so i'd rather jam myself.  Trying to think what id do if this was 50/1.

But ultimately with the stack you have the only option for me is an auto shove, feeling pretty good about it.

If I was sat deeper I'd think about it more, but if rolled id probably still raise to stack.

EDIT sorry I read this wrong, thought there was a bet and raise, you being third to act after this.

With reading it properly got to admit dont like the pot lead (but I never do).  Once you lead pot and he raises you pretty much have to get it in.  But again if rolled, missing should not be a problem with 36 - 48 % equity

Decision really needs to be made on flop as flatting turn is beyond yuk.  As played you can (and definately should) fold turn.

Dudeskin8

100% fold pre for me.

Flop don't like donk bet, at this stage I think best move would be check raise with a view to get it in, as played when he minraises you you probably have odds but I don't like calling as bad players often do this thing of minraise flop, pot turn, its a standard line wiht big hands I see a lot.

Turn as played is a very easy fold.

Overall just fold pre at NL4 and at most limits tbh lol.

AMYBR

I dont see a huge reason to fold pre tbh when closin the action for 2bbs getting nearly 4/1 on a call with 75bbs.

As long as we are good enogh to realise hitting an A isnt a victory.

Dudeskin8

It's just apart from this exact flop, 2 overs + NFD, we're most likely gonna be check folding loads and then like you say even when we hit Ace high we're not super happy.

If any of the BIG winning regs says calling OOP with A8 from the blinds is a +EV play longterm then I'll hold my hands up but on most Mastercash shows I NEVER see it happen espeically <100 bbs deep.

AMYBR

Maybe, never pretended to be a EV purist, quit the opposite

I think we have to keep a certain degree of spew and fluidity in our game however to create action.  I think many would rather 3bet the A8s than flat your quite right.  As always I only speak for myself.

But I have no issue flatting to c/f here.  I think maybe we have to trade some leaks to keep our range disguised/balanced.  Again thats just me.

Just to add to initial post though:

There were a variety of ways to play this flop that didnt involve having to reload.  But leading pot oop takes them all away.  Which is why I hate it as a general bet.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: Right to call down?:

Maybe, never pretended to be a EV purist, quit the opposite I think we have to keep a certain degree of spew and fluidity in our game however to create action.  I think many would rather 3bet the A8s than flat your quite right.  As always I only speak for myself. But I have no issue flatting to c/f here.  I think maybe we have to trade some leaks to keep our range disguised/balanced.  Again thats just me. Just to add to initial post though: There were a variety of ways to play this flop that didnt involve having to reload.  But leading pot oop takes them all away.  Which is why I hate it as a general bet.
Posted by AMYBR

The problem here though is you're using multilevel thinking in that you think other players are watching what you're doing/making notes etc but at NL4 that very rarely happens, it's just a case of get big hand bet big nice and simple.

rancid

check flop


fold turn

AMYBR

this is true.  But having said that:

the fact that they arent paying attention also indicates that they are easily stacked.  So getting involved closing the action getting 4/1 with a hand of potential can never really be a bad thing.

I hear what your saying and I think its totally right.  But equally at this lvl ppl wont fold Ax to our K's + Q's  ai pre where we have to hold, nor will they fold middling to high pp's vs our higher PP's where we are 82%.  So to basically remove our option of getting involved with good odds to balance this seems kind of silly.

As long as we have faith in our game to lose the min and gain the max on our windows of luck i see nothing wrong with it at all.

ABC is great. But we dont have to close the door and deny ourselves decent equity vs opponents that we feel we can own (no offense).

percival09

don't really like donk betting here, as played though 3bet shove flop - i'd say c/c or c/r is best for flop depending on how many opponents remain

fold turn