turn spot in 3b pot

yb

villain is the kind of reg you wouldn't be overly happy getting AK/QQ in against 100bbs deep. he'd view me as aggro/spewy and i'd been 3betting him a lot so i think he calls pre lighter than he normally would. he's seen me 2barrel / 3barrel bluff him in 3b pots in the past but that was quite a while ago and i'm not sure that would come into his thinking.

i don't think he has a draw here very much at all, because if he has was going to semi-bluff he'd be much more likely to do that on the flop.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
yb	Small blind		£0.50	£0.50	£118.75
BritHome	Big blind		£1.00	£1.50	£96.00
	Your hole cards	A A
daddysteve	Fold
villain	Raise		£3.00	£4.50	£117.67
VintageDP	Fold
BobW	Fold
yb	Raise		£10.50	£15.00	£108.25
BritHome	Fold
villain	Call		£8.00	£23.00	£109.67
Flop
		J J 9
yb	Bet		£13.00	£36.00	£95.25
villain	Call		£13.00	£49.00	£96.67
Turn
		2
yb	Bet		£27.00	£76.00	£68.25
villain	All-in		£96.67	£172.67	£0.00

Poker_Fail

If he's the sort of villian you wouldn't really like getting AK/QQ in pre, he must be tight so surely he has to have a jack?

YOUNG_GUN

if he's never bluffing in this spot then i would probably fold. 

Can he ever have KK here too or what range of hands are we beating that he would shove turn rather then river? 

surely plenty of Ks in his range? but doubt its K9 surely he would jus fold? 

its very player dependent based on ur reads i probably fold, he can have KJ/QJ/J10 alot here

WHOAMI196

Not many J combos the villain could have aj is just mathematically unlikely, a frustrated j10? 

You have less behind than what's in the pot, making his shove tricky, Does he think he has fold equity? or does he know you well enough that your rarely double-barreling a brick and likely never folding, edit: looks like you'r setting up the pot to get it in on the river, thinking about it, why would he shove; seem's unnecessary(if he wants a call).

Never the less, this hand is a head-ache, v some oppo i play with i would snap this off, . . . all comes down to reads i guess.

To me he looks strong, why shove the brick on the turn?

LOL_RAISE

tilts me to no end when people take the line villain has becuase shoving the turn with any hand is just really bad.

fwiw i wouldnt even bet the turn id normally check then b/f river

Unknown

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

tilts me to no end when people take the line villain has becuase shoving the turn with any hand is just really bad. fwiw i wouldnt even bet the turn id normally check then b/f river
Posted by LOL_RAISE

You've created a paradox, because by saying shoving any hand is bad in this spot, you suggest that combo draws have better fold equity because the line looks so strong, and so shoving draws in this spot is actually good.

rancid

Can't see how you happily fold knowing oppo has a J, 9's or 2's


gotta say it's got combo draw all over it but you never know unless you call )
You can't fold anyway )

yb

thanks for the replies.

like i said i really don't think he'd play a combo draw this way, i think he'd either raise flop, or call flop call turn. coxy i see what you're saying, but i doubt the villain would ever play a hand this way expecting me to b/f an overpair, even though his line is super strong.

my thinking was that it came down to whether he'd ever raise the turn with QQ/KK, which in the end i didn't think he would do enough of the time (if ever), so i folded. plus i think he'd 4bet KK nearly all the time anyway even though he probably shouldn't.

yb

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

tilts me to no end when people take the line villain has becuase shoving the turn with any hand is just really bad. fwiw i wouldnt even bet the turn id normally check then b/f river
Posted by LOL_RAISE

lol yeah i know, i find it really hard to believe their range is ever balanced there.

another thing that really tilts me is when they 4bet 100bbs deep with like JJ/QQ, and then tank call a 5bet shove. its like afhkashfkjsafkasfjhkssafd

potattoooo

i hate these spots too, but its a call. thought process is pretty much "ok he has shoved, didnt expect that, what a moron, surely he dont do this with nuts, it makes no sense, nah someone playin nl100 is obviously gonna flat IP against me, hell he has seen me 3barrel with air loads of times! its a draw, its 2pair which he is now turning into a bluff very poorly...I CALL...ooh ffs! what a muppet who shoves a jack in this spot...clueless donk...your gettin a big LOL next to my notes on you...RELOAD"...

LOL_RAISE - dont you think your line of check turn b/f river is ridicously weak?

COXY - why is shoving draws/bluffin good in this spot? its awful, what are you reppin? every man & his dog knows the correct play for the villian if he has JX, f/h is too call IP and let OP fire river, shovin a draw/bluff on the turn is worse than shovin the nuts

rancid

Shoving nuts on turn is surely the best move if you know oppo can’t fold

If you could see yb’s cards then surely you shove ?

 

Maybe it’s infact a very good turn shove :S

 

Especially as the majority view is you should not shove nuts on turn :S

 

So while people say “donk” for shoving turn, maybe you just can’t give player tooo much credit for the move

potattoooo

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

Shoving nuts on turn is surely the best move if you know oppo can’t fold If you could see yb’s cards then surely you shove ?   Maybe it’s infact a very good turn shove :S   Especially as the majority view is you should not shove nuts on turn :S   So while people say “donk” for shoving turn, maybe you just can’t give player tooo much credit for the move
Posted by rancid

OP folded AA, shovin the turn with nuts isnt correct move

it would work well against me tho :P call & make notes imo

rancid

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : OP folded AA, shovin the turn with nuts isnt correct move it would work well against me tho :P call & make notes imo
Posted by potattoooo

Folded, grrrrrrrrr now we will never know what oppo shoves there

£27 in and fold, you happy with that yb ?

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : You've created a paradox, because by saying shoving any hand is bad in this spot, you suggest that combo draws have better fold equity because the line looks so strong, and so shoving draws in this spot is actually good.
Posted by CoxyLboro

if im checking AA here then my value range is Jx+ which draws have 0fe against. and shoving Jx+ is bad because i fold all my air/draws that i can possibly fire a 3rd barrel against

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

LOL_RAISE - dont you think your line of check turn b/f river is ridicously weak?
Posted by potattoooo

vs good players yes.
vs players who im not happy getting QQ/AK in pre vs them, then i think its perfectly fine

Unknown

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

COXY - why is shoving draws/bluffin good in this spot? its awful, what are you reppin? every man & his dog knows the correct play for the villian if he has JX, f/h is too call IP and let OP fire river, shovin a draw/bluff on the turn is worse than shovin the nuts
Posted by potattoooo

YB folded AA. Are you telling me that shoving QTss there isn't good if you can get aces to fold? If 'every man and his dog' flats the turn with Jx and boats, then good players will realise and c/f all rivers, whereas if you jam now with both draws and boats then you can put an overpair in a tough situation.

I struggle to see why you think shoving bluffs here is bad if good players will fold overpairs. To me, it reinforces that you can bluff here more often profitably.

Unknown

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : if im checking AA here then my value range is Jx+ which draws have 0fe against. and shoving Jx+ is bad because i fold all my air/draws that i can possibly fire a 3rd barrel against
Posted by LOL_RAISE

My point was aimed more at players who barrel this turn with overpairs, rather than players like yourself who will take different lines like check turn b/f river, or c/c c/c, or c/c c/f depending on villain.

potattoooo

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : YB folded AA. Are you telling me that shoving QTss there isn't good if you can get aces to fold? If 'every man and his dog' flats the turn with Jx and boats, then good players will realise and c/f all rivers, whereas if you jam now with both draws and boats then you can put an overpair in a tough situation. I struggle to see why you think shoving bluffs here is bad if good players will fold overpairs. To me, it reinforces that you can bluff here more often profitably.
Posted by CoxyLboro

good players dont fold overpairs. you tellin me you fold AA if your hero in this spot?

i seriously cant understand why OP folded

potattoooo

trying to get to AA fold about 100bbs deep isnt normally the best plan i dont think, good players should never fold this, and my nan wouldnt fold this because its AA. how much you charge for lessons again?

grantorino

I suck but I would not fold that against villain as described ever. Not too many combos of AJ,JJ,99 there and doubt he flats worse Js. Surely he shows up with worse enough?

LOL_RAISE

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot : good players dont fold overpairs. you tellin me you fold AA if your hero in this spot? i seriously cant understand why OP folded
Posted by potattoooo

fwiw i think its exactly the opposite of bolded part
nit raising paired board we have 1pair i dont see what we beat apart from qq that once in a while doesnt 4b pre

i wouldnt fold on 77x board

potattoooo

kk/qq/ 10/10 draws/bluffs which is apparently great for shovin? if he is a nit you would think minimum he is callin 3bet pre with is AJ so we can rule out KJ/QJ ...if he calls with KJ/QJ he calls with other weaker hands/pairs so we can add them into the mix, again turning hand into a bluff.  if its AJ/99 which are pretty much only hands we can give credit for why shove the turn? oohh i know ive got the nuts lets shove and hope he has AA even tho ive seen the guy 3 barrel with air loads...nah! obv he can be shovin the nuts, no doubt, but im prepared to take that chance for the times it aint that and for the info.  just coz i think shovin a draw/bluff is awful in this spot it dont mean ppl wont do it, hence coxy who is an online pro encourages it. ppl also shove 10/10, 8/8 etc too because obv hero has ak and we can make it look like its a jack not realsing they hav a hand that can call down--FAIL.

meh wtf do i kno...your the pros....i just think foldin sucks

Unknown

I'm not encouraging it, I just don't like to dismiss all the options available to us. I talked a little with LOL_RAISE on the matter, and perhaps I was taking the hand too far out of context, suggesting we would have to be deeper to bluff shove the turn, but I also added in hands like JT/QJ to heros range. If I get shoved on 175bb deep with JT on JJ9 I am not going to be happy to stack off there every time to certain villains,

You can also consider the fact that by jamming here against the same villain with some frequency, that you can get to showdown cheaper with marginal hands because hopefully they will stop betting the turn as often. 

It's not just the here and now of the hand, sometimes got to consider the implications in future hands.

potattoooo

In Response to Re: turn spot in 3b pot:

I'm not encouraging it, I just don't like to dismiss all the options available to us. I talked a little with LOL_RAISE on the matter, and perhaps I was taking the hand too far out of context, suggesting we would have to be deeper to bluff shove the turn, but I also added in hands like JT/QJ to heros range. If I get shoved on 175bb deep with JT on JJ9 I am not going to be happy to stack off there every time to certain villains, You can also consider the fact that by jamming here against the same villain with some frequency, that you can get to showdown cheaper with marginal hands because hopefully they will stop betting the turn as often.  It's not just the here and now of the hand, sometimes got to consider the implications in future hands.
Posted by CoxyLboro

obviously you have to consider the implications for future hands, but we are discussing 1 hand and 1 spot that OP wanted answers too & in this particular spot this deep shovin draws is bad imo but obviously alot of ppl will do it.

if we are assigning JQ/J10 etc to heros range then obv hero has no problem 3betting light OOP, which is cool, now surely villian who judging my OP notes is a nit but has seen YB barrell numerous times with air against him ages ago (indicates villian has been playin nl100+ for a while) can call alot lighter IP, so i think villians range in this hand is alot wider than ppl are giving credit for. it makes no sense now if villian has flopped the nuts to shove over OPs turn bet, why fold out all air, medium strength hands and is this case strong hands (OP folded AA) its pointless. the hand looks to me like some sort of draw, KK/QQ, small-med pps  3/3-10/10 or AK/AQ which he has called/floated the flop IP and decided to turn his hand into a bluff on the turn by shoving. we already know villian aint great because shoving the turn whatever hand is awful. like i said if it is 99/AJ congrats to him big LOL nxt to his name, notes made, dynamic changes next time.

coxy i understand what your saying above but my arguement is for shovin draws this deep, imo it just lighting money on fire. if we have a draw and we see OP 3bet OOP, lead flop, lead turn setting up potential river shove, i dont think we should ever be attempting to bluff. BUT ppl WILL do it, hence you have to add draws/bluffs into villians range. villians thought process "meh i have 10-10, this guy 3 barrels with air alot, he a bit of a nutter from what i remember, he could have AK/AQ or summat, im gonna smash the lot in on the turn, because i dont want guy to spike an A or K or Q on river, and even if it is AA/KK he will think ive got a jack!--yeah good plan ALL-IN!"....

zing

don't fold i think

Unknown

Perhaps you are right Potato, I may have taken the hand too far out of context and made it irrelevant compared to the OP's intial question. 

Thanks for your continued contribution to the thread, and managing to remain polite and balanced in your opinion, I appreciate it.

offshoot

potato i think youre seriously overestimating how often people will 3 barrel bluff this board, folding out air is probably not that big a consideration,  and how often people will c/f the river compared to how often they will c/c a shove on the turn might make it better to shove turn.