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Defying conventional wisdom II - the 10 big blind myth
You all know the conventional wisdom: once you get down to 8-10 big blinds in a tournament, you’re in shove or fold mode. Nothing else is acceptable. The logic behind this is clear: limping is out of the question, any raise effectively pot commits you so you may as well get it in. Also, you have maximum fold equity with a shove.
Er....let’s take this apart. Let’s look at two hands. In both you’ve 9 Bigs and it’s folded round to you on the button. Both small and big blind have 30 Bigs. Not an unrealistic scenario. You have potential to hurt them a bit; they can bust you.
Hand 1 – you have KK
First off, you want action. This is the hand that could get you right back into the thick of it. If you get this hand cracked, then so be it, but you want action from this hand, maybe a treble up. What’s the best way to get action?
1. The shove? But this is meant to maximise fold equity so it can’t be the answer, by definition.
2. We’ll come back to this........
Let’s look at hand 2
Hand 2 – 8Ts
Usually, this is a shove in the situation described (open folded round to you on the button with 9 bigs). You hope to win the blinds, but if you get called at least you’ve got a hand.
But hold on...you’re playing this hand the same way you’d play KK and that can’t be right. One you want action, with the hope of doubling or trebling up, the other you just want to ‘pay the rent’. So they should be played differently maybe? If there are two different plays, then the 10 big blind rule dies instantly. If there aren’t two different plays, then why not?
Both the 8Ts and the KK should be played exactly the same way, with little more than a min raise, maybe a 2.5 raise. Not a shove. This maximises the pay-off from the KK and scares knowledgeable players when you have 8Ts.
Why turn your KK into 8T? That’s what you’re doing when you shove. Why not flip it on its head and turn 8T into KK? That’s what you do with a small raise.
Comments
Only three things to say on this. One is agreeing with the above. Keeping our line consistent is as important as value.
Secondly, you are assuming Oppos fold when we shove the 8-10 BB stack in LP. We want to get called. We need to decide what our aim is. Get it all in good pre vs one caller, or make a silly bet pre that prices in the blinds that wont fold a piece of the flop with more equity than they had pre.
Thirdly, for me most importantly, we lose so much value getting tricky. Bunch of hands peel flop from the blind with the intention of auto mucking vast high portion of flops, will only come along post with equity. Example being your range is narrow, BB has PP or suited connectors. The PP sigh AIPF calls for your 8-10bbs. But will c'f most flops, when you min or 3x. If the hand of intrinsic value connects, they now have alot more equity than they would have pre.
Ultimately we are not shoving looking for fold as strong as K's. We are looking to get our stack in ahead and hold. But with 8-10 BBs you'll find the range of hands a potion of players shove with in unopened spots is going to be wide. So shoving the remaining stack consistently disguises the strengths and weaknesses of our ramge.
I see what you are trying to do, but the lines seem somewhat one dimensional to me in honesty bud, no offense.
the majority of the time if you 2.5x it from a 9bb stack and get 3bet jammed on we have to fold, and then we have a 6.5bb stack which has a tonne less FE when we jam.
also jamming rather than opening small means that our oppoenents can never resteal bluff us preflop
if someone was only going to be opening AA,KK and then 89suited it might be better to minraise rather than shove
The only situation where I would even consider doing anything other than shoving is if it is an unopened pot and there is another shortstack still to act.
This applies whether the hand is KK or 10 8 suited.
Preferable still is not allowing yourself to reach this level in the first place by looking for a spot to 3bet shove 12-15 big blinds with a wide range while you still have enough chips to get it through.
or
2.5x
or
min
just balance unless oppo in blinds dictate otherwise
My (somewhat limited I admit) experience is that shoving 10 Bigs to win 1.5 bigs will sooner or later get you caught out. Most half-decent players will expect you to be shoving light so will call you down light. The raise, however, often warrants much more of a decision from the villain than a shove: if it is much harder for the villain to play against, isn't it a better play?
AmyBr - no offence taken mate. Thanks for making a considered response. If my example is one dimensional, is it more one-dimensional than the '10 BB shove or fold' scenario?
I hope that some people will read these threads and think for themselves - discard it as an old man's waffle or think that there may be an inkling of truth in there. Either way learn to think for themselves and not simply accept doctrine.
It is jst a time tested approach.
In both defying wisdom threads it seems like you are putting the emphasis on Tlife more than playing solid winning poker.
We are ignoring the fact that we will be having a 10ish bb stack facing the blinds and will have to get our stack shifted within next 12 hands regardless, combined with facing difficult decisions mathwise from the blind positions.
When I said one dimensional all I meant was that I think we are selectively viewing perceived benefits of hanging onto our Tlife by our fingernails, rather than playing good aggressive winning poker.
I put up a thread on here where I put myself in a weird spot with J's. If you have read through it, know that I would be much more inclined to have reshipped over the UTG minner if he had infact shoved, because I can put him on a far wider range of hands. Making our game polarised as risk averse and transparent is not a good scenario.
Agree with much you have said but disagree with one of your assertions. It's going way off topic, but.....
In tournaments there is only ONE objective - to never have zero chips in front of you. That's it. Anything else is whitewash. I don't think your strategy will achieve this.
Though this would be better discussed in the pub over a beer!
BB
Its far easier to win/go deep by having your focus be on chip accumilation, rather than preserving Tlife, but obv there is a balance.
As somebody else said, there are only certain rarified situations where a player should have 10bbs in an MTT.
Where do you live? Fancy meeting up for a beer? PM me if you fancy it.
BB
Agree 100% with 1 and 3, it is 2 that I disagree with
Okay, so you agree that you have to be 100% committed to the pot ?
And you want to play your 10 8 suited as you would your K K ?
The idea of minraising is laughable. What are you hoping the players still to act will do ?
If they have a hand they will set you all in, so if you are committed to the hand you have to call them when you know you are behind. Sensible ?
Or they will be priced in to flat call you with any two. And unless you hit flush straight or trips on the flop, where do you go from here ?
Are you going to bluff them off the hand now ? Shoving here will not be so effective, because of the size of your bet in relation to the pot. Or are you hoping to pair your hand, and cross your fingers there are no overcards?
A 3x bet is only marginally different, the above still applies if they have decent stacks. The only differences are that you are wasting another big blind preflop, and shoving postflop is even less effective
You cannot play 10 8 suited this way.
But this does not mean that you cannot play KK like this. However it would make little difference against good players with decent stacks. They are never going to flat call your minraise or 3x bet. They will set you allin in a flash. But they are just as likely to call your shove.
As said before, the only situation where it could be valid is if a player still to act has less than 15- 20 BBs. Your small bet with KK could (and I only say could, not would!) be seen as weak. And you MAY induce a shove with a worse hand.
Someone mentioned range balancing. Not something I worry too much about when I am shoving with either of these hands. If you get it through nobody sees your cards.
And importantly by playing aggressively a couple of times with similar rubbish, you increase the chances of getting the call the third time when you have the KK !
The point I was making (badly !) was that if the shoves get through they dont know that you dont have the goods every time.
But if your 10 8 does get looked up in a tournament, you are more than likely out of there, so who cares ?
You also say, and I quote "You cannot play 10 8 suited this way. But this does not mean that you cannot play KK like this."
So you're saying that KK and T8s can be played differently. I agree! See my comments in the first post about these hands. I've been stressing that you don't have to shove with 8-10 Bigs, that was the point of this thread!
Good idea, trying to be a mythbuster (or should I say mythbluster) Always good to have an open mind.
Now wheres the next one?