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Mini open last 19
sitting 9/19, 4 handed
UTG been opening a few, raising to the same amount from EP
Vill has folded once to a big stack 3 bet shove
Only hand seen when vill calls a 12bb stack 3 bet shove w/A8s
what are we doing here
answers on a postcard
UTG been opening a few, raising to the same amount from EP
Vill has folded once to a big stack 3 bet shove
Only hand seen when vill calls a 12bb stack 3 bet shove w/A8s
what are we doing here
answers on a postcard
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| rancid | Small blind | 800.00 | 800.00 | 34300.00 | |
| RODDERS45 | Big blind | 1600.00 | 2400.00 | 68012.50 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| --bigjl-- | Raise | 3600.00 | 6000.00 | 79046.50 | |
| nolegs577 | Fold | ||||
| rancid |
Comments
You imply he is doing this light a reasonable portion of time, which he ought to be at 6 max 4 seats with the healthy stack, depending on aggro factor of table.
Hate 3bet fold + too deep to shove.......myeh but we add 6k back onto our stack of 34k when we can take it down pre.
If we flat, BB is priced to call any 2 generating 11k pot vs 2 opponents oop.
At 4 max my range utg with his stack is going to be suuuper wide......
Think its going to come down to pure read of dynamic & opening range of UTG + aggro factor of BB.
If he is likely light I think I shove.......myeh but then at 4max he has interesting decision (based on stacks) with alot of paint combos that he opens with.
May even flat and play through streets, but feels kind of timid. Going to depend if I feel have edge on table + reads on UTG....
Hope it worked out for you. Am indecisive on this one in honesty. Dont like shove, dont like 3bet either. Think I take a passive route but is likely bad.
EDIT: Misread and thought blinds were 400/800. With being 800/1600 whether we shove or not is player dependant. If he calls AIPF for 12BBs w A8 he'll call for 20. His calling range is going to be wider @ 4 seats. I suspect we can find a better spot to use our 20bbs in the next 2 orbits. We will get looked up by alot of hands we are flipping against. Dont mind drawing the line here vs perceived flip, dont mind finding a spot with less resistance. I think we will be called more often than not however.
To expand the conersation further what's everyone's shove range here?
I'm probably doing it with 77+, ATs+ AJo+ KQ.
We are just about deep enough for call to be ok here but if you think the villain can fold a good % then i like re-raise to 6k
my reshipping range here is wider than my belly if hes been raising alot
I dont agree that we will be called more often than not. I think this gets through more. you have more than enuf chips to hurt him so i think he would think twice about calling light. (and its not a BH lol)
Also i personally dont like flat calling because we are oop and will have to make a decision on a flop with overcards on it usually. Its a waste of 2 big blinds unless we hit a set.
Unusally i feel qualified to comment on this one as i have recently won 2 mini opens and final tabled a couple too
We have to win flips at this stage to get stack to win right?
Do we want folds, are we happy if we shove and get called
If called we flipping at best, surely – flipping Is good with 20bb ish?
Oppo calling range is over pairs + big aces right, everything else oppo folds
Do we raise to 6K to look like big premium so he lays down range he would call a shove with
Is it better to set mine, and if no set wait for a better spot to get that double up versus mr aggro or are we happy to stick it in
All In all bit unsure in this spot even though I think versus aggro open this is a very standard shove spot, but with 20bb maybe I can wait a little
All in all if players are calling shoves lighter than normal, then should we tighten raising/shoving range or not :S
I’ll post result later if anyone cares enough )
It's 10% of your stack to set mine. You could be going up against 2 oppos with 88. My opening range at this stage would be 99 but I'm a nit! I prob fold. :-(
Are we pinning too much on 88 for the shove to hold up
We are at best flipping versus btm of oppo calling range
Surely oppo folds enough to make it a shove and increase our stack by 18%
If called we have a made hand, but with 20bb – I am really struggling to find a shove here! 15bb = ez shove but seriously with no antes we happy shoving this
Yeah this was pretty much what I was trying to say through sleep deprived brain last night. Its a shove or fold
I misread stack/blind size initially on this.
Its not our hand strength, but stack size that is the issue when playing this hand.
When shoving here I think we are getting looked up more often than not, with flipping at best being likely.
If we feel we can use our last 20bigs in unopened spot more effectively I def pass.
If its an aggro table where UTG opens light I likely opt for that flip though, but when shoving I'm mostly hoping for a fold.
18% add on
4 handed
aggro opener
no brainer init
point is, MTT with no antes and the majority being passive - can we wait for a better spot
If we feel we have an edge on table I dont think it is a no brainer. We have a slightly playable stack which we may opt to use rather than opting to flip vs utg oppo's opening range.
Shovers remorse then Rancid? As always in a game, if we have strong reason to do something in poker, and understand why we are doing it, its always right, outcome regardless.
This is a great +EV spot.
In Response to Re: Mini open last 19:
HI BL,As a newbie who wants to improve I've found this thread really interesting and I take on board Gregs comment. As I said above I'm a nit so I'd def fold and wait for a better spot, tho I do realise that its a shove or fold scenario. I'm interested in the AJ/JT opening ranges bit. If I COULD put oppo on JT I reckon I still fold as I reckon I'm only slight favourite and I'm putting my tourney life at risk. I'm guessing from the comments from the experiencied players I'm def getting this wrong? (percentage wise I mean) Would you shove with ANY PP?
Also, sorry for your BB Rancid & hijacking your thread!
I'm a pretty experienced SNG player, so I'm really used to playing short handed, shortish stacked like this. Obviously it's a very different game to short handed, deep-stacked cash games so to cash players you can look a bit reckless saying "3-bet shove with 22+". lol
My opinion on it is that the opening range of most players, 4-max is at least 30 hands. If we assume that they'll call our 20BB with 10 hands we're "afraid" of - AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, AK, AQ, AJ, AT - then we're going to get this through uncontested 2/3 times against a tight opener. Even when we're called, we're a slight favourite against four of the ten hands in his calling range anyway. So the 3-bet shove pre-flop is the obvious play in light of those assumptions. Of course there may also be 88 and 77 in our opponents calling range but we're definitely not afraid of those. In that sense the 22 is in a very similar position to the 88. It's a flip against the overcards and most of the time it will get a fold anyway.
Late in tournaments it's all about pre-flop play. When we're four-handed, 88 is a monster. Most people will have a super-wide opening range in order to pay the blinds which come around every other hand. We can see a shove is likely to be profitable against a tight range so against a wide range it's even stronger.
Don't be silly, this is why I put these out there