Playing too fast?

SJspanky1

Continuing my quest to add some MTT talent to my limited skills I played the 10.30/10.45 BH's earlier. Busted out 8th/9th in both. Once blinds go up late stages I like to pretty much shove strong hands and put opponents to the test. This was a 50/50 that I lost on a brutal river but looking at it again if I just see a flop/turn theres no way my opponent can get to river. Should I slow down with these kind of hands and be happy to play thru the streets??

tony011	Small blind		400.00	400.00	16482.50
Goz_Ole	Big blind		800.00	1200.00	5933.69
	Your hole cards	Q A
faliraki	Call		800.00	2000.00	8658.78
spendru	Fold
SJspanky1	All-in		15210.00	17210.00	0.00
tony011	Fold
Goz_Ole	Fold
faliraki	All-in		8658.78	25868.78	0.00
SJspanky1	Unmatched bet		5751.22	20117.56	5751.22
faliraki	Show	10 10
SJspanky1	Show	Q A
Flop
		J 2 K
Turn
		A
River
		Q
faliraki	Win	Straight to the Ace	20117.56		20117.56

Dudeskin8

Super standard, again amazed it's been posted

jimb0d1

The shove is fine. He is never going away with that stack anyway.

SJspanky1

In Response to Re: Playing too fast?:

Super standard, again amazed it's been posted
Posted by Dudeskin8

I know it's a standard race Dude, I just wanna know if most people are happier to play thru streets rather than get it all-in with these type of holdings? At 18 BB deep is there any room to play left? I'm interested in how other players perceive situations, sorry if I wasted 14 seconds of your life on reading the post though

Dudeskin8

The effective stack is 11bbs, if you can play poker that deep well done to you.

liamboi11

if you dont shove you are obv going to raise with aq on the btn and when opponent picks up 10s he is goin allin anywayz so think regardless it was always going 2 be an allin pre flop same result so just ul you lost the race this time.

just noticed he wasn`t a blind he limped utg with 10s surely he was always getting it pre anyway

yb

we are 19bbs deep vs the small blind, raise to ~2k imo

BorinLoner

It's an interesting shove pre-flop. Faliraki had just limped utg, so your shove wasn't a 3-bet. If he had opened for 2.5x or 3x you have a nice 3-bet shoving stack, but since he only limped your shove actually looks weaker than a standard raise and will be called by a wider range than you'd like. This isn't such an issue against faliraki, since he's short anyway, but it is an issue against the other large stack who could potentially look you up with any pair 77+. Obviously that's not what happened, but we don't want to risk a big clash with the player that can almost knock us out while there are weaker players at the table. For that reason, a standard raise of 4x over the top of the limper looks good to me, then snap-call him if he shoves.

I'd hate calling this spot pre-flop, since you'd be showing no aggression and wouldn't be defining your hand. You'd find it hard to play on a flop against a short-stacked player unless you hit your hand. You'd also risk being raised off your hand pre-flop by one of the blinds.

SJspanky1

In Response to Re: Playing too fast?:

It's an interesting shove pre-flop. Faliraki had just limped utg, so your shove wasn't a 3-bet. If he had opened for 2.5x or 3x you have a nice 3-bet shoving stack, but since he only limped your shove actually looks weaker than a standard raise and will be called by a wider range than you'd like. This isn't such an issue against faliraki, since he's short anyway, but it is an issue against the other large stack who could potentially look you up with any pair 77+. Obviously that's not what happened, but we don't want to risk a big clash with the player that can almost knock us out while there are weaker players at the table. For that reason, a standard raise of 4x over the top of the limper looks good to me, then snap-call him if he shoves. I'd hate calling this spot pre-flop, since you'd be showing no aggression and wouldn't be defining your hand. You'd find it hard to play on a flop against a short-stacked player unless you hit your hand. You'd also risk being raised off your hand pre-flop by one of the blinds.
Posted by BorinLoner

Thanks for the breakdown/analysis of the hand Borin. That is the type of response I was hoping for with this post. Lets say I had made the 4x raise and then the other big stack re-pops me, are you suggesting I should then lay down the AQc? Wouldn't that be a little nitty? Am I not ahead/level with most of his shoving range? Like I said earlier I'm just starting to develop my MTT play after years of just hammering the cash tables so if some of my questions are a little simple I do apologise.

 At a cash table w/o reads/notes I'm obviously not open shoving a buy-in with this hand but Tourneys are a different ballgame with the shallow stacks in later levels.

BorinLoner

When it comes to the big stack you have some meta-game questions. If you've made the raise, over the top of a limper, how often do you think he will shove and with what range of hands.

In a vacuum - so against most players - you're showing strength by raising over the top of a limper. If he can shove over that, he's shoving into not just the limp but your raise as well. 3-betting into the one player that can knock him out. In that circumstance the gap-concept should tell you that he has your AQ beat and you should fold.. but as I say, you've played with him so you'll have to figure out his 3-bet shoving range. In a vacuum it's a fold, but the meta-game could make it a call.

grantorino

make it 2.2K pre, call it off

AMYBR

Am always shoving here after the limp, unless utg limper has history of getting tricky strong in these spots.

I dont mind making it 2.2k to call off either, issue is a large portion of players dont think in terms of stacks and will station you pre.  Leaving you in a weird math spot on the flop vs 1 or 2 callers.

Picking up AQ this late with 19 bbs is always going to be a line drawn in sand scenario.  Even when he makes it 2.2k pre utg we are still shipping.

It isnt a slow play with 10's, its a timid limp, that will call AIPF anyway.  Find these plays utterly pointless.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Playing too fast?:

Am always shoving here after the limp, unless utg limper has history of getting tricky strong in these spots. I dont mind making it 2.2k to call off either, issue is a large portion of players dont think in terms of stacks and will station you pre.  Leaving you in a weird math spot on the flop vs 1 or 2 callers. Picking up AQ this late with 19 bbs is always going to be a line drawn in sand scenario.  Even when he makes it 2.2k pre utg we are still shipping.
Posted by AMYBR

All good points. I just can't agree with the idea of making it 2.2k pre-flop. Few players who limp for 800 will fold for 1400 more, regardless of stack size. This is why I'd advocate making it 4x, so 3200. It commits your opponent, whether he realises it or not. If he calls pre, you're always getting it in on the flop.

My reasons for advocating a raise and not a shove are entirely concerning the other large stack. If the UTG had raised it would be an easy 3-bet shove, but as a single raise the shove looks weaker than the 4x raise.

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Playing too fast?:

In Response to Re: Playing too fast? : All good points. I just can't agree with the idea of making it 2.2k pre-flop. Few players who limp for 800 will fold for 1400 more, regardless of stack size. This is why I'd advocate making it 4x, so 3200. It commits your opponent, whether he realises it or not. If he calls pre, you're always getting it in on the flop. My reasons for advocating a raise and not a shove are entirely concerning the other large stack. If the UTG had raised it would be an easy 3-bet shove, but as a single raise the shove looks weaker than the 4x raise.
Posted by BorinLoner

Which surely isnt a bad thing, vs range of hands perceiving this and opting to call.  What hand perceives weakness, calls and we are not beating?

4xing from a 19BB stack is not something I would opt to do generally.  Leaves us in worse math spot post than the 2.2k suggested.  We are always getting it in on flop vs UTG stack when he doesnts limp 3bet.  Could argue that when he flats we have a bullet post, but I think stacks are FAR to shallow to be overthinking this spot.

BorinLoner

It's a bad thing when the big stack decides to call us with 77 or similar. We're not miles ahead of much he calls us with. He's not likely to call us with AJ or AT and do we really want to be clashing with the big stack while those shorties are at the table?

You're absolutely right that we're stuck against the UTG limper on the flop if he calls pre, but that's the point. We're taking the decision pre-flop, and anything that happens on the flop is automatic.

I wouldn't say that the shove is th worst option. It's way ahead of the fold or call, but I think the raise is a better way when you consider the big stack at the table.

AMYBR

Its good having yourself and SJspanky1 contributing, think we needed some fresh blood.

TBH with the added value of pot with utg limping am not sure the big stack is going to be folding 77+ in any case when we raise 4x.  Prob more likely he uses our FE against us when we make a 2.5 - 4x raise, adding in likelyhood of utg limper 3/4 bet shove.

But that aside, It is line in sand time regardless.  I am AOK shoving w AQs, being called by under pairs, than making a 4x from 19bbs to call off vs that range.

We have someone limping with 10bbs, we have AQc and 19bbs.  Am not going to be obsessing about what the blinds do at a 5 handed table in this spot.

BorinLoner

I guess it comes down to how you want to play it yourself. I'd make it the 4x, possibly even 5x, then be willing to fold to a shove from the big stack. I would consider that most players in that spot aren't going to make that shove with hands I want to be up against. I'd hate to see any pair or AK and I think they're most of the shoving range.

If you don't mind taking the flip for your stack against the underpairs then it's fine to shove, but I don't like that when you have the chance to ladder most of the time. I don't think you're getting away from the hand against the UTG player, whether you shove or just raise. You're playing for stacks there.

BorinLoner

I don't advocate laddering very often but with two shorties at the table I'm looking to get heads up rather than risk the clash with the other dangerous stack.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Playing too fast?:

I don't advocate laddering very often but with two shorties at the table I'm looking to get heads up rather than risk the clash with the other dangerous stack.
Posted by BorinLoner

Actually just re-read this... We're five handed with two tables remaining. I thought we were down to the final four players. Bit of a boo boo. Now I'm not sure about alot of what I said.

BorinLoner

Okay, I've thought about it. I'm still confident in what I said but I'd be much less happy to fold for the three bet shove from the big stack. Still favour the raise, but the gap between that and the shove is wafer thin, since your big stack opponent won't be thinking about heads-up.

I missed the fifth player at the table because their chip stack is not visible btw...

AMYBR

In Response to Re: Playing too fast?:

In Response to Re: Playing too fast? : Actually just re-read this... We're five handed with two tables remaining. I thought we were down to the final four players. Bit of a boo boo. Now I'm not sure about alot of what I said.
Posted by BorinLoner

Lol.  This was the worst bit :P : 

"I'd make it the 4x, possibly even 5x, then be willing to fold to a shove from the big stack"

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Playing too fast?:

In Response to Re: Playing too fast? : Lol.  This was the worst bit :P :  " I'd make it the 4x, possibly even 5x, then be willing to fold to a shove from the big stack"
Posted by AMYBR

Yes, that does look bad now.

Laddering nine-handed is not great... but if we were 4-handed, I'd be DESPERATE to get heads-up... This thread makes me look less than bright.