Massive two-way draw in PLO8

Giant811

On the turn I have TPTK + NFD for hi and the nut low draw, so I decide to raise the family pot to get some chips in the middle.

1. Did I overplay my hand? Should I just have taken the cheap river and re-evaluate?
2. Did I underplay my hand? Should I have bet bigger to increase the chance of taking down the pot there and to build the pot if I hit?
3. Once I miss completely, should I just give up and check-fold, or is betting the right move even in a split pot game?

meandyou44Small blind 15.0015.001445.00merliot98Big blind 30.0045.002250.00 Your hole cards28KA   msdad1Call 30.0075.001920.00Giant811Call 30.00105.001975.00tiggertooCall 30.00135.001990.00drbob1111Call 30.00165.002255.00meandyou44Call 15.00180.001430.00merliot98Check    Flop  Q3K   meandyou44Check    merliot98Check    msdad1Check    Giant811Check    tiggertooBet 60.00240.001930.00drbob1111Call 60.00300.002195.00meandyou44Call 60.00360.001370.00merliot98Fold    msdad1Call 60.00420.001860.00Giant811Call 60.00480.001915.00Turn  6   meandyou44Check    msdad1Check    Giant811Check    tiggertooBet 60.00540.001870.00drbob1111Call 60.00600.002135.00meandyou44Call 60.00660.001310.00msdad1Call 60.00720.001800.00Giant811Raise 360.001080.001555.00tiggertooFold    drbob1111Call 300.001380.001835.00meandyou44Fold    msdad1Call 300.001680.001500.00River  2   msdad1Check    Giant811Bet 840.002520.00715.00drbob1111Call 840.003360.00995.00msdad1Fold    Giant811Show28KA   drbob1111ShowQ4Q<span style="padding:0px 0px 10px;margin:0px 0px 0px 2px;color:#000000;ba

WHOAMI196

over played your hand big time, plo8 is a multi pot game, a great format to play it in is limit poker(this is for a reason), but pot limit is more fun. 

You over played it because to have the nut low, and high you have actually very little outs. Min raise the turn would be better, keeping everyone in, and essentially doubling the chips going in on the turn. And why are you bluffing?? its not a bluffing game(you can at specific times), absolutely pointless m8 lol but very funny though. 

If you try to get it heads up a lot of the time (esp with draws or just the low, the high) your only going to split the pot majority of the time, pointless. Play your hand v strong if you have nuts, to quarter ur opponent or even when  potential to scoop the pot.

huuuuume

flat call turn

dont bluff a river that puts out a low especially when you dont have anything that can take down the hi

Giant811

Thanks for your input. I figured that since nobody had shown any strength that any A or K would most likely give me the hi as well. That would give me over 20 outs to get at least half the pot, and some fold equity. Never in a million years did I expect someone to slowplay a set here

Looking back I definitely should've checked the river, there are very few hands that will call the turn and then fold the river.

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: Massive two-way draw in PLO8:

Thanks for your input. I figured that since nobody had shown any strength that any A or K would most likely give me the hi as well. That would give me over 20 outs to get at least half the pot, and some fold equity. Never in a million years did I expect someone to slowplay a set here Looking back I definitely should've checked the river, there are very few hands that will call the turn and then fold the river.
Posted by Giant811

1. remove fold equity from your vocabulary when playing plo8 2. Build the pot with draws and strong hands and keep the customers in , don't push them out. 3. out of 16 combos of hands on the turn, did you think one pair would be the best high? 

Giant811

In Response to Re: Massive two-way draw in PLO8:

In Response to Re: Massive two-way draw in PLO8 : 1. remove fold equity from your vocabulary when playing plo8 2. Build the pot with draws and strong hands and keep the customers in , don't push them out. 3. out of 16 combos of hands on the turn, did you think one pair would be the best high? 
Posted by WHOAMI196

3. Definitely not, that was a straight bluff. My opponent said he put me on KK and called for the chop, so I guess there was a minute chance it might work, but definitely a bad play.

2. I definitely agree, but thought with 2 rounds of min-bets I could get more chips in. That of course contradicts my earlier point about fold equity, but maybe you won't notice.

penguin7

It sounds like you were a little unsure of what you were trying to do with the turn bet. 5 opponents and both nut draws, but there were still too many rivers leaving you with no showdown value.

Position is important here.

Small raise (min fine) would have been called all the way round to build pot enough.

Missed river.....away cheaply

Hit low, miss high...pot control to avoid quarter.

Hit flush, with paired board... same applies, or take a chance.

Hit scoopio river, or flush on unpaired board (or K).... with 1100/1200 already in pot, any bet by the three players to act in front of you should let you get them all in. If they check, I think you can safely c/r, as Tigger has bet on both flop and turn. Any bet by him here will likely get you the multiway action you need.

Talon

  Only just seen this. But will give my opinion FWIW.

  Preflop: Marginal hand so dont mind the limp.
  Flop: For me this is your first big mistake. You only have TPTK on a very coordinated board. You are effectively calling a bet hoping to hit runner runner. This for me is a major leak in anyones game because too many times you will pick up something on the turn to keep you interested and then brick the river so as to lose a lot of chips in a pot you should not even have been in. So for me this is a snap fold here.

 Turn: This is a great card for you and building the pot up is a good idea here. But i think your raise size is wrong. a smaller raiise works well too keep the interest of others and not commit yourself totally. Or alternatively you could go for the pot raise to totally commit yourself with the massive draw. Your raise fell in the middle and didnt accomplish most of what was needed.

 River: You have a very weak Hi and no Lo. This is not a good spot to be bluffing against opponents who have shown no desire to fold on any other street. The only real shock for me on this river is the flat call by the hand with nut Lo and a good Hi.


 So all in all i think you pretty much messed up all down the streets in this hand. But the main concern for me was your call on the flop with effectively nothing hoping to hit runner runner. Some people will argue with this assessment but this is the way that i see it.

penguin7

Hey Talon

Nice appraisal there

Quick question for you....AA79 rainbow on button. Min raise from UTG and both called. Raise, call or fold ?

This type of hand has got me into trouble so many times. Just folded it and flop came AQQ ! Too tight ?

Talon

  Tony in answer to your question it depends on the situation.


  So cash or early stages of a tourny. Take the call . With this you are either looking to hit massive or miss. Hit massive and hoover up the chips, miss and run away cheaply.

 Latter stages of a tourny you should be looking to 3-bet to get all the chips in preflop giving yourself good fold equity and still the possibility of winning on showdown.

 Middle stages of a tournament are where this is a difficult hand to play. It will all depend on relative chipstacks. If you are deep you can take the call, if you are shallow you can look at the 3-bet option. It is with middling chipstack where this is really the problem.

  You also need to think about raising ranges as well. Too many novices to PLO8 will raise with or call any raise with A2xx believing this is the absolute nuts. So opponent knowledge is key as well.

 Just a general surmising of the question. All in all this is the almost the worst type of hand to be dealt because it promises so much but very often delivers only heartache.Other pretty hands to avoid are KKQJ and 789T, these play brilliantly in PLO but badly in PLO8.

penguin7

It was earlyish in 100gtd 2nite and I was below ave stack.

I cant see what I can hit except an Ace. And when I do I am usually playing for half.

Hate this exit hand, would have got me right back in it, but thats poker !

Hand History #476887107 (21:25 10/02/2012)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
locater	Small blind		100.00	100.00	7860.00
penguin7	Big blind		200.00	300.00	1880.00
	Your hole cards	A A 6 2
Quietman	Fold
merliot98	Fold
manace666	Fold
locater	Call		100.00	400.00	7760.00
penguin7	Raise		200.00	600.00	1680.00
locater	Call		200.00	800.00	7560.00
Flop
		10 6 3
locater	Bet		800.00	1600.00	6760.00
penguin7	All-in		1680.00	3280.00	0.00
locater	Call		880.00	4160.00	5880.00
locater	Show	J 2 2 4
penguin7	Show	A A 6 2
Turn
		10
River
		Q
locater	Win high	Flush to the Queen	4160.00		10040.00
	No qualifying low hand

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EvilPingu

@ Penguin7 - I don't think you did anything wrong - Your opponent's play is simply awful - Playing that hand in the first place, and getting it in with 4th pair, gutshot, 3rd nut low draw and 4th nut flush draw? Fail. He got very lucky. I guess if he's going to play that hand, then he's got to get it in as he's not going to see a better flop than that with his hand, but wow.

I don't mind getting it in here with AA, and a nut low draw on that board, especially as you have Ad, so you know he's not got the nut flush draw.

JFTR - Your opponent scoops this pot about 15% of the time. You scoop about 45% of the time.

http://www.allinpokerodds.com/index.php?gametype=omahahilo&hand%5B0%5D=acad6h2s&hand%5B1%5D=2c2h4djd&hand%5B2%5D=&hand%5B3%5D=&hand%5B4%5D=&board=td6d3c&nsimulations=5000&task=process

Giant811

In Response to Re: Massive two-way draw in PLO8:

  Only just seen this. But will give my opinion FWIW.   Preflop: Marginal hand so dont mind the limp.   Flop: For me this is your first big mistake. You only have TPTK on a very coordinated board. You are effectively calling a bet hoping to hit runner runner. This for me is a major leak in anyones game because too many times you will pick up something on the turn to keep you interested and then brick the river so as to lose a lot of chips in a pot you should not even have been in. So for me this is a snap fold here.  Turn: This is a great card for you and building the pot up is a good idea here. But i think your raise size is wrong. a smaller raiise works well too keep the interest of others and not commit yourself totally. Or alternatively you could go for the pot raise to totally commit yourself with the massive draw. Your raise fell in the middle and didnt accomplish most of what was needed.  River: You have a very weak Hi and no Lo. This is not a good spot to be bluffing against opponents who have shown no desire to fold on any other street. The only real shock for me on this river is the flat call by the hand with nut Lo and a good Hi.  So all in all i think you pretty much messed up all down the streets in this hand. But the main concern for me was your call on the flop with effectively nothing hoping to hit runner runner. Some people will argue with this assessment but this is the way that i see it.
Posted by Talon

Thanks for your analysis, I always appreciate you sharing your Omaha knowledge.