Flush & Straight draw - Was I loose in making this call?

Arteta4

Hi all,

My first post so appreciate any feedback on this hand.

I had just joined the table so no reads on the players. I put the first all in on an over-pair and thought I was favourite to win the pot, Was this the right move to call?
Would you have folded the flop?
Didn't put the second player behind on a set. By the time he also went all-in I was pot-committed.

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
mac12345	Small blind		£0.05	£0.05	£8.39
oswaldfich	Big blind		£0.10	£0.15	£4.95
	Your hole cards	6 7
DBCooper	Fold
cirrussx18	Call		£0.10	£0.25	£6.34
Arteta4	Raise		£0.30	£0.55	£10.21
flopparen	Fold
mac12345	Call		£0.25	£0.80	£8.14
oswaldfich	Call		£0.20	£1.00	£4.75
cirrussx18	Call		£0.20	£1.20	£6.14
Flop
		9 8 2
mac12345	Check
oswaldfich	All-in		£4.75	£5.95	£0.00
cirrussx18	Fold
Arteta4	Call		£4.75	£10.70	£5.46
mac12345	All-in		£8.14	£18.84	£0.00
Arteta4	Call		£3.39	£22.23	£2.07
mac12345	Show	9 9
oswaldfich	Show	4 4
Arteta4	Show	6 7
Turn
		7
River
		10
Arteta4	Win	Straight to the 10	£20.83		£22.90

Cheers all,

Paul

rancid

shove flop me thinks

Dudeskin8

I personally don't like raising a 64bb stack with 67s and also with 45bb stack in BB so just fold pre for me.

On flop shove when it gets to you, if you flat you have to call all in 100% of time which you obvz did.

Arteta4

Thanks, both v good points.
Definitely agree wth the shove on the flop now I think about it.

JackoG9

Not sure you can put Oswaldfich on an overpair as he only called after a raise and call pre flop. 
After three calls pre it's possible one has a set which makes you a 3-2 underdog but IMO you'll be up against worse often enough to make shove on the flop profitable.

grantorino

Prob fold pre, if you open make it bigger

Flop definitely shove if you are continuing, prob get it in but I dont think folding is that bad either

BorinLoner

The raise pre-flop isn't really enough and though it doesn't make much difference to the outcome of this particular hand, in the long-term it will. Generally speaking, not many players will limp for 10 then fold for 20 more. You want to give your opponents difficult decisions but when this bet gets back to your opponent it's an automatic call for him. We want to give him the chance to fold.

Now, as this hand played, the massive over-shove on the flop is very unusual and looks like a desperate attempt to win the pot right now. This usually signals a drawing hand or a marginal made hand like one-pair. Your hand might look like a massive drawing hand but we have to examine our outs. If we know that neither of our opponents has a higher flush draw, we have fifteen outs - nine spades and six straightening outs - against any made hand. The problem is that one of our opponents could easily be playing a higher flush-draw and this would reduce our outs to six straightening outs with possibly 6 pairing outs. With fifteen outs we're a favourite and with twelve we're an underdog. Now, as it happens we're up against two made hands, one of which is a set. The fact that it's a three-way all-in fouls up the odds a little, but as far as I know we're still the most likely of the three players to win this hand. I have to say though that I think it's more by luck than judgement that we are favourites.

I think that most of the time when we're making this call there's a good chance we'll see a better flush draw than our own, which means we'll be behind with 6 staightening outs and probably 6 pairing outs. When it's three handed we could easily see a better flush-draw and a made hand that kills our pairing outs.

With the call here, the best case scenario is that we go heads-up to showdown with 15 outs, as a favourite. The worst case is that we go three-handed to showdown with just 6 outs, and being a big underdog. Not being given the chance to be the aggressor on the flop has given us a pretty tough decision.

I think I'd fold this spot most of the time, having decided that I'm against a better flush-draw too often to make the call profitable in the long-run - Having a player in behind me, still to act, doesn't help but that player's unlikely to show up with a set too often. That could be argued to be a bit tight but I'd rather wait for a spot when I can really take advantage of someone like Oswaldfich who's donk-shoving into me. I'd be even happier to wait for a better spot if I knew he was making those shoves with 44.

BorinLoner

I should add that if our opponent has a higher flush draw that includes the 8 of spades, we're going to have just 6 outs against that single opponent.

Arteta4

Thanks all, really appreciate all the feedback and your time here.
Very interesting hand and I'l take each point on board.
Let's see if I get around to putting a second hand up on here :-)

ballboy

With a straight draw and a flush draw you had 40% equity even when the guy had a set. The fours are virtually dead.

Its hard to say the best thing to do, because normally in this spot with these hands, you are the one who would be calling and the guy with the 99s would be the last aggressor pre-flop. In that scenario you would check to the raiser and check raise IMO. You wouldn't want to bet out (but not go all in -eg 2/3s pot) as if they just call (they won't in this case with a set of 9s) your stuck with 7 high and your equity saturates (gets worse) by 9% to 31%. Check raising gives you a chance to turn your hand into a semi-bluff giving you a chance to win the hand on the flop. THis way you v all the c-bet hands that miss the flop and any hands like JJs QQs KKs etc that might call your check raise you are not in bad shape against either. Your extreme strength could make them nervous of two pair a set or the monster draw you have. Their hand suddenly becomes like a pocket pair vs two over cards where they are at best flipping but if you have flopped a set their equity is about 5% for hitting a set on the turn or the river.

In this situation you are the last aggressor but the problem you have is you don't have a reason to think they have anything when the cards come out. If they check behind its a disaster for you. Personally I would just bet out 3/4s of the pot and hope that either everyone folds or someone goes all in. If I have a draw like that, I don't want to have money behind both the players on the turn because my equity is drying out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLFH0-MvqPs

In your own time, check out this video from the Big Game. Its Dani Stern doing a semi bluff with similar situation. See how he plays it and be inspired.

Overall though, I am never folding a straight and flush draw. Perhaps I am a fish lol

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Flush & Straight draw - Was I loose in making this call?:

With a straight draw and a flush draw you had 40% equity even when the guy had a set. The fours are virtually dead. Its hard to say the best thing to do, because normally in this spot with these hands, you are the one who would be calling and the guy with the 99s would be the last aggressor pre-flop. In that scenario you would check to the raiser and check raise IMO. You wouldn't want to bet out (but not go all in -eg 2/3s pot) as if they just call (they won't in this case with a set of 9s) your stuck with 7 high and your equity saturates (gets worse) by 9% to 31%. Check raising gives you a chance to turn your hand into a semi-bluff giving you a chance to win the hand on the flop. THis way you v all the c-bet hands that miss the flop and any hands like JJs QQs KKs etc that might call your check raise you are not in bad shape against either. Your extreme strength could make them nervous of two pair a set or the monster draw you have. Their hand suddenly becomes like a pocket pair vs two over cards where they are at best flipping but if you have flopped a set their equity is about 5% for hitting a set on the turn or the river. In this situation you are the last aggressor but the problem you have is you don't have a reason to think they have anything when the cards come out. If they check behind its a disaster for you. Personally I would just bet out 3/4s of the pot and hope that either everyone folds or someone goes all in. If I have a draw like that, I don't want to have money behind both the players on the turn because my equity is drying out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLFH0-MvqPs In your own time, check out this video from the Big Game. Its Dani Stern doing a semi bluff with similar situation. See how he plays it and be inspired. Overall though, I am never folding a straight and flush draw. Perhaps I am a fish lol
Posted by ballboy

I think you might have misread the hand (or I've misread your post since it's 3am. lol). On the flop, we don't have the opportunity to check. One of the players has already shoved before the action comes to us on the flop. We're just deciding whether to commit ourselves to the hand or not. Obviously if we call this all in for £4.75, we won't be folding for £3.39 more when the player behind shoves.

You are quite right though; Against a set with 15 outs we are a 40% dog, not a favourite. My mistake.

ballboy

In Response to Re: Flush & Straight draw - Was I loose in making this call?:

In Response to Re: Flush & Straight draw - Was I loose in making this call? : I think you might have misread the hand (or I've misread your post since it's 3am. lol). On the flop, we don't have the opportunity to check. One of the players has already shoved before the action comes to us on the flop. We're just deciding whether to commit ourselves to the hand or not. Obviously if we call this all in for £4.75, we won't be folding for £3.39 more when the player behind shoves. You are quite right though; Against a set with 15 outs we are a 40% dog, not a favourite. My mistake.
Posted by BorinLoner

Sorry yes I misread it. Maybe shouldn't have commented so late. I think I would be calling there probably. The real worry is if someone had a similar hand to me but the top end of the straight draw. That would be a disaster.

The decision might depend on lot of things like how big their roll is. How much would be in the pot at the end etc. Its very border line. I think either is acceptable although what is the guy with the 4s doing?

Arteta4

In Response to Re: Flush & Straight draw - Was I loose in making this call?:

With a straight draw and a flush draw you had 40% equity even when the guy had a set. The fours are virtually dead. Its hard to say the best thing to do, because normally in this spot with these hands, you are the one who would be calling and the guy with the 99s would be the last aggressor pre-flop. In that scenario you would check to the raiser and check raise IMO. You wouldn't want to bet out (but not go all in -eg 2/3s pot) as if they just call (they won't in this case with a set of 9s) your stuck with 7 high and your equity saturates (gets worse) by 9% to 31%. Check raising gives you a chance to turn your hand into a semi-bluff giving you a chance to win the hand on the flop. THis way you v all the c-bet hands that miss the flop and any hands like JJs QQs KKs etc that might call your check raise you are not in bad shape against either. Your extreme strength could make them nervous of two pair a set or the monster draw you have. Their hand suddenly becomes like a pocket pair vs two over cards where they are at best flipping but if you have flopped a set their equity is about 5% for hitting a set on the turn or the river. In this situation you are the last aggressor but the problem you have is you don't have a reason to think they have anything when the cards come out. If they check behind its a disaster for you. Personally I would just bet out 3/4s of the pot and hope that either everyone folds or someone goes all in. If I have a draw like that, I don't want to have money behind both the players on the turn because my equity is drying out. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLFH0-MvqPs In your own time, check out this video from the Big Game. Its Dani Stern doing a semi bluff with similar situation. See how he plays it and be inspired. Overall though, I am never folding a straight and flush draw. Perhaps I am a fish lol
Posted by ballboy

Thanks, that was an interesting video, and I can see how that pot could have been played if I was first to act.
Very well thought out.