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No brainer fold or not?
Deepstack £3
davelufc?
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| covwolf | Small blind | 100.00 | 100.00 | 17585.00 | |
| Quietman | Big blind | 200.00 | 300.00 | 4905.00 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| scorpio13 | Fold | ||||
| DiggerMan | Fold | ||||
| stokefc | Fold | ||||
| elsadog | Fold | ||||
| ronnie2313 | Call | 200.00 | 500.00 | 11670.00 | |
| davelufc | Raise | 800.00 | 1300.00 | 4600.00 | |
| Andyl1986 | Fold | ||||
| covwolf | Fold | ||||
| Quietman | All-in | 4905.00 | 6205.00 | 0.00 | |
| ronnie2313 | Call | 4905.00 | 11110.00 | 6765.00 |
Comments
Well done for ur cash in this tourney last nite. Wp
I dont hate a limp along pre
Once you see a 3-bet all-in and a call from the limper, it's time to run for the hills. Throw your cards at the dealer and hide under the table.
As for wanting to make smaller raises in MTT play, I agree wholeheartedly, but we do that mostly when we can open the betting and can have a chance to win the pot without seeing the flop, since nobody has yet shown an interest. Not when we're facing a limp.
Don't take such a dismissive approach; "really simple stuff tbh", it doesn't help your point.
As for wanting to make smaller raises in MTT play, I agree wholeheartedly, but we do that mostly when we can open the betting and can have a chance to win the pot without seeing the flop, since nobody has yet shown an interest. Not when we're facing a limp.
Don't take such a dismissive approach; "really simple stuff tbh", it doesn't help your point.
Good fold in the end.....
If we had KK, you'd be right. We have KQ though.. It's not a made hand and it doesn't have the kind of value you're assigning it. Against most lower connecting cards it's not a huge favourite - unless they're playing KJ or QJ - and if our opponent can have any range of hands we're not going to know when they have hit. If we make it it 750-800 we can assign a range such as 77 and lower, AJ, AT, perhaps A9, KQ, QJ and KJ. Now we have a range of hands in mind, we can c-bet a safe flop with confidence. If we don't define his range then we'll never be able to bet any flop with confidence unless we hit it.
You say that only big hands will call, but AA, KK, QQ and AK will all most likely open-raise or, occasionally, limp-raise, so we either will fold pre-flop or go to the flop knowing they're not in our opponents range. We can be pretty sure that JJ, TT and 99 will open-raise too, so the "stronger" hands in our opponents range are mostly unmade hands and middle to low pairs. So we give them a difficult decision pre-flop and assess the strength of their opening range to enable us to define which flops are likely to hit him and which are not.
I think it's safe to say that we all agreed that in the hand as it was, it was a certain fold and none of us will be too surprised to see KK v AA.
We want to make our opponents make a tough decision, but an extra 400 after limping in for 200 is an automatic call for almost every player We don't want to make decisions easy for our opponents. By making it 400 more after he's put 200 in, we're not giving him a decision, it's a simple call. We want to make our opponents' decisions difficult.
We want him to make bad decisions, This is much more important than making him make tough ones, if he makes correct "tough" decisions that's bad for us. If he autocalls the extra 400 great, for most players this this will be a mistake with their limpcalling range oop this shallow
We certainly can't be playing KQ for value pre-flop
Well we cant really bluff with it. We should have enough equity v his limpcalling range to raise for value imo, and even if he calls with the weaker hands that beat us we should still win hand a lot. We dominate a Kx,Qx hands which he can easily limp withwe don't define his range or our own, so we wil be guessing on almost any flop. you don't want to define his range then I have to ask you why that is and what you'd do on a board without a King or Queen an why you think you can make assumptions about his hands? That's why we want to define it - to fold out all the 89, T9, TJ and lower connecting cards that we can't predict - So we can bet on most flops with confidence that he's unlikely to have hit a 267 flop or a 38Q flop. If we don't fold out those random hands, our c-bet is based purely on a gamble since we won't know what a dangerous flop looks like.
This is what I really dont get. Why do we want to remove weaker hands from his calling range, and weight his range towards stronger ones? Why do we want to define our own range? We are readless so we have to make some assumptions, but I certainly wouldnt expect average villain to always fold JT type hands if he limps them. He never folds hands we really want to fold (AQ+,QQ+, but he prob wont limp them like you say). He may fold some small pps, Ax, but most players who limp these will calla raise whether we make it 600 or 800
Its good for us if he calls with stuff like 89, we will still win a bigger pot most of time, and if we both hit we can stack him lots. IP I would generally be hoping for a call here, although obv readless its hard to say and |I wouldnt be too dissapointed if he folded either
The whole debate here is about what we would do pre-flop, and what the optimal pre-flop raise would be facing a limp for 200. I think we'd all end up playing most flops in similar ways. I may have different ideas of what players will do pre-flop facing a raise with certain hands, but in my experience many, not all, limpers will fold hands like 9T facing a 4x raise, but won't even consider it when facing a 3x raise. That's good when it allows us to take the pot down pre-flop. I think you'd agreee that most players will let go of hands like 45 and 56, if the've limped with them.
As for weighting his range towards stronger hands, you have to remember that the stronger hands in his range are not "strong" hands at all. They'll be pairs like 44 and Aces like A8. So we're not defining his range as only strong hands, we're just narrowing it to a smaller number of weak, predictable hands. Narrowing his range to hands like this will make it easier for us down the streets - really just on the flop in this particular hand since we're pretty shallow - since we can represent strength on most flops. If he has 44, unless he flops the set (1/8 times) he's going to be scared by any flop and we can take it down with a c-bet. If he has hands like A8, even if he flops an Ace we can rep a stronger Ace and take it down - Although in this example, as I say, we're shallow so we might just have to give up on the flop.
Whether we make it 600 or 800 we're all going to have similar problems on particularly wet boards like 678, but if we've made it 800 we can make a reasonable assumption that two-pair and made-straight hands are unlikely to be in his range. Meaning we're still able to rep an over-pair against A8 or a drawing hand like A9. If our opponent flops the set, it's just hard luck and we'll lose our c-bet and possibly more if we assess the flop play incorrectly... However, if we don't fold out those 45 and 67 hands, we're never going to get our c-bet through and we're definitely going to lose it.
You say that "Its good for us if he calls with stuff like 89, we will still win a bigger pot most of time, and if we both hit we can stack him lots." but I don't think many players will flop an 8 on a King high board and go broke with it. They're playing that hand for the sake of straight and flush and two pair hands, so when we get it in against them on a flop with our top pair, we're hoping they show a flush or straight draw. We'll never be a huge favourite and could be a big underdog when they show two-pair or trips.
I appreciate the effort you've gone to with your response. I just think that where we vary is in the pre-flop value of KQ. Yes we're in position, which is obviously going to be very helpful, but we're only a big favourite against other King-high and Queen-high hands. Narrowing his range by putting him to that tough decision will still result in those KJ, QJ, KT hands making a mistake often enough for us to not lose the value against the range we really dominate. If we face a flop without further narrowing his range any c-bet bluff we make is going to be more gamble than calculated aggression.
Begin to understand why I get fewer and fewer replies