Advice Please, Bet Sizing with the NUTZ for Maximum Value

Red_King

Got dealt some top hands tonight, but need advice on getting value.

Hand History #478462862

CBFC	Small blind		10.00	10.00	2000.00
Red_King	Big blind		20.00	30.00	1980.00
	Your hole cards	A 10
deano247	Fold
hunky42	Fold
pomfrittes	Call		20.00	50.00	1970.00
candie2011	Call		20.00	70.00	2080.00
CBFC	Fold
Red_King	Check
Flop
		J J Q
Red_King	Check
pomfrittes	Check
candie2011	Bet		70.00	140.00	2010.00
Red_King	Call		70.00	210.00	1910.00
pomfrittes	Fold
Turn
		K
Red_King	Check
candie2011	Check
River
		3
Red_King	Bet		210.00	420.00	1700.00
candie2011	Call		210.00	630.00	1800.00
Red_King	Show	A 10
candie2011	Muck	Q 7
Red_King	Win	Royal Flush	630.00		2330.00

Hand History #478349040

rich211	Small blind		100.00	100.00	8095.00
4622	Big blind		200.00	300.00	6505.00
	Your hole cards	K K
Red_King	Raise		600.00	900.00	1880.00
archer78	All-in		3690.00	4590.00	0.00
vodkashot666	Fold
bbqbub	Fold
rich211	Fold
4622	Fold
Red_King	All-in		1880.00	6470.00	0.00
archer78	Unmatched bet		1210.00	5260.00	1210.00
Red_King	Show	K K
archer78	Show	9 9
Flop
		4 K K
Turn
		A
River
		3
Red_King	Win	Four Kings	5260.00		5260.00

Hand History #478520566

Red_King	Small blind		75.00	75.00	1382.50
121285	Big blind		150.00	225.00	2850.00
	Your hole cards	J Q
speedy16	Fold
JSAVO	Fold
tezjess	Call		150.00	375.00	1397.50
Red_King	Call		75.00	450.00	1307.50
121285	Check
Flop
		4 J J
Red_King	Check
121285	Check
tezjess	Check
Turn
		J
Red_King	Check
121285	Check
tezjess	Check
River
		2
Red_King	Bet		450.00	900.00	857.50
121285	Fold
tezjess	Fold
Red_King	Show	J Q
Red_King	Win		450.00		1307.50
Red_King	Return		450.00	0.00	1757.50

Hand History #478509908

candie2011	Small blind		10.00	10.00	1990.00
hairyqueen	Big blind		20.00	30.00	1980.00
	Your hole cards	3 3
xxxDEANOxx	Fold
Red_King	Call		20.00	50.00	1980.00
rza27	Call		20.00	70.00	1980.00
prisoner1	Fold
candie2011	Fold
hairyqueen	Check
Flop
		Q 3 3
hairyqueen	Check
Red_King	Check
rza27	Check
Turn
		6
hairyqueen	Check
Red_King	Bet		20.00	90.00	1960.00
rza27	Raise		130.00	220.00	1850.00
hairyqueen	Fold
Red_King	Raise		220.00	440.00	1740.00
rza27	Call		110.00	550.00	1740.00
River
		10
Red_King	Bet		412.50	962.50	1327.50
rza27	Call		412.50	1375.00	1327.50
Red_King	Show	3 3
rza27	Muck	Q J
Red_King	Win	Four 3s	1375.00		2702.50

BorinLoner

In the first hand I think you got maximum value. I don't hate checking your BB pre-flop with AT. Your check-call on the flop looks just like the hand you have; a flush-draw. That means that when you hit the flush you're only ever going to win one more bet from two-pair hands. If you make that bet on the turn, he might call here but will fold the river to another value bet and if you check the turn, he'll probably call a value bet on the river. The best reason to bet the turn is to avoid missing your value when another heart hits the river and scares off the value from those two-pair or straight type hands. Tough to get many calls from the flush-draw with the 9 of hearts, but someone with that might pay off a bet on the turn too. Full houses and Quads will happily get all their chips in anyway, so there's no need to worry about how to get value from those. So next time you have a Royal flush, I'm sure you'll play it fine.

The second hand is just a pure brag post - Shame on you.

The third hand is a bit more interesting. By failing to bet until the river, you've done your best to avoid building the pot when you have the nuts. Since it's a limped pot, you can't check the flop to the raiser and expect them to c-bet. There is no raiser. It's often a good idea to bet trips in this situation. People mostly don't give you credit for having trips when you lead out. After all, why would you risk scaring your opponents off? Lead the flop and you'll get called by a wider range of hands than you might think. Any pocket pair is likely to give you action as is a 4. Even an Ace might give you some action... The same logic can apply to the turn, after hitting quads. In fact, that logic can even be exaggerated on the turn. "He's seen two checks behind and now he thinks he can steal the pot. He can't have the Jack, it's just so unlikely with three on the board." By the river, it just looks really unlikely that you'll get any value. You could make a small bet and hope to get value from an unlikey 2 or 4, but your big bet is rarely going to be called.

The same can be applied to hand four: You check the flop, but this flop is even better for your hand since the Queen is a card that can be in your opponents range - In the previous hand, the 4 was unlikely. If we lead out here our opponent is unlikely to give us credit for a three. Not many 3's are in our pre-flop limping range either, even fewer considering two of them are on the flop. We'll get action from a Queen or a flush draw and failing to bet misses out on the value we could gain from charging those flush draws. If we give them free cards and they miss, we'll get nothing from them at all.
The min-bet on the turn is inadvisable. I understand that you're desperate for value but now there are two flush draws on the board for us to look for value from. We can charge them more for those draws or the Queen - between 50% and 75% of the pot is a standard bet. Once we're raised to 130, we min-raise. Again this is inadvisable since it looks really strong, but doesn't charge our opponents as much as they'll be willing to pay with draws or a Queen. We can easily make this 400 and expect action.
The river bet is fine. We're unlikely to get anything further out of the missed flush draws, but a Queen could easily put us on a missed flush-draw ourselves and pay us off. Just as happened. We'll never be raised on this river unless our opponent has a full house. We have just shown too much strength on the turn.


The one thing that these hands have in common is the lack of aggression pre-flop with unmade hands. If we continually limp and make-up th SB with medium and weak hands, when we raise with hands like the KK our hand is quite transparent. Of course this is a small selection of hands to base an argument on but I hope you're balancing your range a little more in other hands - Raising medium strength hands as well as big hands pre-flop, in order to disguise when you really have a hand.

huuuuume

the only hand where you get value is when you bet pre flop.

the reason you dont get value with these big hands is because they all take place in limp pots.

grantorino

1 raise pre

2 jam pre

3 jam pre

4 raise pre, bet flop, raise turn bigger

JackoG9

Were these hands from one night?!?!? Can you give me six numbers under 50 please?

SkyPokerTV

In Response to Advice Please, Bet Sizing with the NUTZ for Maximum Value:

Got dealt some top hands tonight, but need advice on getting value. Hand History #478462862 CBFC Small blind   10.00 10.00 2000.00 Red_King Big blind   20.00 30.00 1980.00   Your hole cards A 10       deano247 Fold         hunky42 Fold         pomfrittes Call   20.00 50.00 1970.00 candie2011 Call   20.00 70.00 2080.00 CBFC Fold         Red_King Check         Flop     J J Q       Red_King Check         pomfrittes Check         candie2011 Bet   70.00 140.00 2010.00 Red_King Call   70.00 210.00 1910.00 pomfrittes Fold         Turn     K       Red_King Check         candie2011 Check         River     3       Red_King Bet   210.00 420.00 1700.00 candie2011 Call   210.00 630.00 1800.00 Red_King Show A 10       candie2011 Muck Q 7       Red_King Win Royal Flush 630.00   2330.00 Hand History #478349040 rich211 Small blind   100.00 100.00 8095.00 4622 Big blind   200.00 300.00 6505.00   Your hole cards K K       Red_King Raise   600.00 900.00 1880.00 archer78 All-in   3690.00 4590.00 0.00 vodkashot666 Fold         bbqbub Fold         rich211 Fold         4622 Fold         Red_King All-in   1880.00 6470.00 0.00 archer78 Unmatched bet   1210.00 5260.00 1210.00 Red_King Show K K       archer78 Show 9 9       Flop     4 K K       Turn     A       River     3       Red_King Win Four Kings 5260.00   5260.00 Hand History #478520566 Red_King Small blind   75.00 75.00 1382.50 121285 Big blind   150.00 225.00 2850.00   Your hole cards J Q       speedy16 Fold         JSAVO Fold         tezjess Call   150.00 375.00 1397.50 Red_King Call   75.00 450.00 1307.50 121285 Check         Flop     4 J J       Red_King Check         121285 Check         tezjess Check         Turn     J       Red_King Check         121285 Check         tezjess Check         River     2       Red_King Bet   450.00 900.00 857.50 121285 Fold         tezjess Fold         Red_King Show J Q       Red_King Win   450.00   1307.50 Red_King Return   450.00 0.00 1757.50 Hand History #478509908 candie2011 Small blind   10.00 10.00 1990.00 hairyqueen Big blind   20.00 30.00 1980.00   Your hole cards 3 3       xxxDEANOxx Fold         Red_King Call   20.00 50.00 1980.00 rza27 Call   20.00 70.00 1980.00 prisoner1 Fold         candie2011 Fold         hairyqueen Check         Flop     Q 3 3       hairyqueen Check         Red_King Check         rza27 Check         Turn     6       hairyqueen Check         Red_King Bet   20.00 90.00 1960.00 rza27 Raise   130.00 220.00 1850.00 hairyqueen Fold         Red_King Raise   220.00 440.00 1740.00 rza27 Call   110.00 550.00 1740.00 River     10       Red_King Bet   412.50 962.50 1327.50 rza27 Call   412.50 1375.00 1327.50 Red_King Show 3 3       rza27 Muck Q J       Red_King Win Four 3s 1375.00   2702.50
Posted by Red_King

Hi,

Thank you for your post,
Could you please let me know the hand ID or the tournament/cash table its from?
If its from a televised table then we might be able to show it on tomorrows show at 8pm called the poker clinic.

All the best

TV Team