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villified 4 call..(pros and cons please)

edge215edge215
edited March 2012 in Area 51
situation.....last two tables...both players in this hand short stacked in comparison...initial raise didnt signify big pair...or ace king/queen/jack..or all-in would probably have been pre-flop....to which i would have folded as other big stacks at table...(I thot perhaps around sixes-eights).....scrappy flop....but as u c i flopped 2nd best pair...and thot the ace kicker may have had some equity with 2 cards to come..heads up the rest folded..I felt the only hand the other player could beat me with at this stage...was a ten....if the all-in hadn't of came....I would have invested at least another 3000 chips
CARDRACK Small blind  300.00 300.00 45340.00
djdec Big blind  600.00 900.00 25570.00
 Your hole cards
  • 9
  • A
   
Swiggle Call  600.00 1500.00 55232.50
sedgy123 Raise  1800.00 3300.00 15595.00
edge215 Call  1800.00 5100.00 17810.00
CARDRACK Fold     
djdec Call  1200.00 6300.00 24370.00
Swiggle Call  1200.00 7500.00 54032.50
Flop
  
  • 10
  • 5
  • 9
   
djdec Check     
Swiggle Check     
sedgy123 All-in  15595.00 23095.00 0.00
edge215 Call  15595.00 38690.00 2215.00
djdec Fold     
Swiggle Fold     
sedgy123 Show
  • J
  • 10
   
edge215 Show
  • 9
  • A
   
Turn
  
  • 9
   
River
  
  • 5
   
edge215 Win Full House, 9s and 5s 38690.00
in a raise.....When I got all-inned....I really didnt want to put in all my chips...but felt it was a massive overbet....and there was a good chance i could be dominating...or that the ace mite fall......."should i have called"?

 
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Comments

  • DAVEYZZDAVEYZZ
    edited March 2012
    i think you know the answer is no..... but so what,you decided you had outs and may even of been ahead then got lucky......


    (remember your good fortune when you get called light)....:)
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  • edge215edge215
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    i think you know the answer is no..... but so what,you decided you had outs and may even of been ahead then got lucky...... (remember your good fortune when you get called light)....:)
    Posted by DAVEYZZ[/QUOTE

    If you dont call with this hand Daveyzz...you could by in danger of being walked over by aggressive players.
    however..point taken....and win lose or draw i wouldnt villify other player...I would villify myself or the fickle gods of poker.
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited March 2012
    Myeh, dont see what it is your trying to achieve.

    Pre flop action: limp, raise station OTB seems like overspew to me.  3bet or fold, prob always a fold for me.  Not beating anything, nor does our hand play well vs limpers calling range, which he will def call when comes back round.

    We have two players to act behind us when we call with second pr here, just looks like kamikaze spew to me. 

    Pros and cons?, all cons no pros IMO.  Plain clicking n praying, specially approaching FT.  Sure we might be ahead.  But do we really want to get involved so weak in multi way pot, even IP?  Our hand is so easily dominated, flatting PF is just grim.  Flop we call 2x pot with 2nd pr. with 2 players to act AI when we started hand with 30bbs. 

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  • edge215edge215
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    Myeh, dont see what it is your trying to achieve. Pre flop action: limp, raise station OTB seems like overspew to me.  3bet or fold, prob always a fold for me.  Not beating anything, nor does our hand play well vs limpers calling range, which he will def call when comes back round. We have two players to act behind us when we call with second pr here, just looks like kamikaze spew to me.  Pros and cons?, all cons no pros IMO.  Plain clicking n praying, specially approaching FT.  Sure we might be ahead.  But do we really want to get involved so weak in multi way pot, even IP?  Our hand is so easily dominated, flatting PF is just grim.  Flop we call 2x pot with 2nd pr. with 2 players to act AI when we started hand with 30bbs. 
    Posted by AMYBR
    yep!......good clarification AMBYR.....2 very active players following me......see sense in pre-flop fold.....would have been living in hope had I 3 betted pre-flop... as bigger stacks were calling most pre-flop hands....perhaps frustrated with fall from 50k and long wait between playing hands,,,,"NIL DESPERANDUM"....I lucked out!.....works both ways... 
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  • AMYBRAMYBR
    edited March 2012
    Lol i hear you on the desperation AKA tilt :p

    Got to be honest, hadnt looked past the flop action, to see result as assumed you were raging :p

    Didnt even know you'd improved by river until above post.  Nice lol. fwiw I think his play with the 10J is overspew also, 3xing limper n shoving flop.

    RESULT! :P
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  • edge215edge215
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    Lol i hear you on the desperation AKA tilt :p Got to be honest, hadnt looked past the flop action, to see result as assumed you were raging :p Didnt even know you'd improved by river until above post.  Nice lol. fwiw I think his play with the 10J is overspew also, 3xing limper n shoving flop. RESULT! :P
    Posted by AMYBR
    no wasnt a great all in...but he didnt deserve to lose it......and would definitely like to win by playing good poker as opposed to luck...but it happens to us all....best thing to do...is go on area51....analyse the feedback...and change your game accordingly.......thks
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  • DazlerDazler
    edited March 2012
    very bad call imo, cant blame you for the call of the min raise on the button, depends if he does this all the time. But you gotta know your behind here on the flop, It might be a massive overbet but thats because he dosnt wanna see anymore cards. So hes ovb got the 10 and i would think A10 or K10 Q10 J10 so def not a set as he would try and max value and dosnt know you have hit any part of that flop and wouldnt bet so big cos he wants the call. So how would you improve here with your hand and simple answer for your torny life is just the A or 9 so 7 outs not great for torny life knowing you have to hit just those 2 cards. Dont call a shove here unless its someone that does it all the time and if thats the case you trap them and get them when you def know your ahead.
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  • edge215edge215
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    very bad call imo, cant blame you for the call of the min raise on the button, depends if he does this all the time. But you gotta know your behind here on the flop, It might be a massive overbet but thats because he dosnt wanna see anymore cards. So hes ovb got the 10 and i would think A10 or K10 Q10 J10 so def not a set as he would try and max value and dosnt know you have hit any part of that flop and wouldnt bet so big cos he wants the call. So how would you improve here with your hand and simple answer for your torny life is just the A or 9 so 7 outs not great for torny life knowing you have to hit just those 2 cards. Never call a shove unless its someone that does it all the time and if thats the case you trap them and get them when you def know your ahead.
    Posted by Dazler
    particularly bad when just outside the cashing stages Daz....it so reminds me of my early play on the site...could have folded into so many cash positions and then played a bit more freely...but continuously
    bombed out on the fringe by playing low equity cards....ended up breaking all the legs on the coffee table(or is that tables)....
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  • grantorinograntorino
    edited March 2012
    shove or fold pre

    flop multiway its a fold, hu I might call it off
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  • drumahai05drumahai05
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    very bad call imo, cant blame you for the call of the min raise on the button, depends if he does this all the time. But you gotta know your behind here on the flop, It might be a massive overbet but thats because he dosnt wanna see anymore cards. So hes ovb got the 10 and i would think A10 or K10 Q10 J10 so def not a set as he would try and max value and dosnt know you have hit any part of that flop and wouldnt bet so big cos he wants the call. So how would you improve here with your hand and simple answer for your torny life is just the A or 9 so 7 outs not great for torny life knowing you have to hit just those 2 cards. Dont call a shove here unless its someone that does it all the time and if thats the case you trap them and get them when you def know your ahead.
    Posted by Dazler
    I agree 100% with your analysis its a fold. that's how a good solid player would play it. but a lot of good solid players are going for it because they know they are more likely to hit. we are all seeing it game after game at the moment. i think people are playing the software not the player. its changeling the way people play. its my  opinion you will go deep by playing tight solid poker, but you wont win.
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  • edge215edge215
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please) : I agree 100% with your analysis its a fold. that's how a good solid player would play it. but a lot of good solid players are going for it because they know they are more likely to hit. we are all seeing it game after game at the moment. i think people are playing the software not the player. its changeling the way people play. its my  opinion you will go deep by playing tight solid poker, but you wont win.
    Posted by drumahai05
    i totally agree with this post Drumahai.....I also know that there are loads and loads of players on the site shoving all-in after the flop because they haven't advanced their hand...and try to steal pot.....i.e...the 2 9's were strong ....which i wrongly predicted might have been the case here....if you continuously fold to this aggression...there ain't much point playing...sometimes u got to bite the bullet and might even be pleasanly surprised....however...knowing the dynamics of the table.....the correct play was fold pre-flop......as for playing the site...big believer.....we can no longer villify players for calling reasonable bets with cards like 7-5 suited etc etc etc....we just have to play site and understand that these can be perfectly justifiable calls in some circumstances....indeed if i didnt call some of these hands.....in some cases i would be inactive for ages...i'm sure we've all sat in tourney's with no playable cards for what seems an age...good post drum
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  • DazlerDazler
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please) : I agree 100% with your analysis its a fold. that's how a good solid player would play it. but a lot of good solid players are going for it because they know they are more likely to hit. we are all seeing it game after game at the moment. i think people are playing the software not the player. its changeling the way people play. its my  opinion you will go deep by playing tight solid poker, but you wont win.
    Posted by drumahai05
    sorry drumahai i have to disagree a good solid player isnt going to go for it cos they know they are more likely to hit. If your a good solid player you wouldnt make the call here as you dont really have any reason to and hardly any outs. Im not saying that your not a good solid player though :)
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  • edge215edge215
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please) : sorry drumahai i have to disagree a good solid player isnt going to go for it cos they know they are more likely to hit. If your a good solid player you wouldnt make the call here as you dont really have any reason to and hardly any outs. Im not saying that your not a good solid player though :)
    Posted by Dazler
    HI DAZLER
    what happens your a good solid player...your on one of the final 3 tables....say youve 30.000k...two other players similar...three with 80.000k or more....blinds 1000/2000.....your having a real bad run of cards...you cant get calling you cant 3x because either one or the other bigstacks keeps 10x betting or more...blinds about to go up again...no amount of solid play will help you.....and the shorter your stack gets...the less threat you become...therefore even an all-in will be called immediately....you need to make a stand or several stands while your stack can still scare the bigstacks....fire with fire and hope you get lucky....
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  • DazlerDazler
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please) : HI DAZLER what happens your a good solid player...your on one of the final 3 tables....say youve 30.000k...two other players similar...three with 80.000k or more....blinds 1000/2000.....your having a real bad run of cards...you cant get calling you cant 3x because either one or the other bigstacks keeps 10x betting or more...blinds about to go up again...no amount of solid play will help you.....and the shorter your stack gets...the less threat you become...therefore even an all-in will be called immediately....you need to make a stand or several stands while your stack can still scare the bigstacks....fire with fire and hope you get lucky....
    Posted by edge215
    yes you do have to make a stand against bullying big stacks when you only have 15 bb and if you arnt getting hands that are strong then you can push with any two preferably connectiing cards if not Q10 type hands or mid pk pair. Really you should be thinking about this a lot earlier than when you have 15bb and try not to be in this situation. When your this low and blinds are that high it matters not how solid a player you are and just comes down to luck and timing. But to call shoves by players with second or bottom pair holding rag A and hoping to hit an A is not good play and you should never call hoping you will hit long shots, as in OP but these two scenarios are very different from each other!
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  • edge215edge215
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please) : yes you do have to make a stand against bullying big stacks when you only have 15 bb and if you arnt getting hands that are strong then you can push with any two preferably connectiing cards if not Q10 type hands or mid pk pair. Really you should be thinking about this a lot earlier than when you have 15bb and try not to be in this situation. When your this low and blinds are that high it matters not how solid a player you are and just comes down to luck and timing. But to call shoves by players with second or bottom pair holding rag A and hoping to hit an A is not good play and you should never call hoping you will hit long shots, as in OP but these two scenarios are very different from each other!
    Posted by Dazler
    crossed wires on this one Dazzler....talking more in general play to drumahais post...have already debunked any merit in the A9 hand(bad play that touched lucky)... and believe me i'm always thinking about the size of my chipstack before it gets higher or lower...but unfortuneately sometimes i have no control over the cards that beat me...(LOL)
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  • DazlerDazler
    edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please):
    In Response to Re: villified 4 call..(pros and cons please) : crossed wires on this one Dazzler....talking more in general play to drumahais post...have already debunked any merit in the A9 hand(bad play that touched lucky)... and believe me i'm always thinking about the size of my chipstack before it gets higher or lower...but unfortuneately sometimes i have no control over the cards that beat me...(LOL)
    Posted by edge215
    thought so lol was cos you replied to my reply to durumahais and replied back to me, so thats why confused by it lol. Yea same answer about being short stacked and solid play though get um in any two half decent generaly. But you knew that anyways :)
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