Thoughts on my line?

Lambert180

I know I won, but I just want your opinions on whether you think this is a good move long term?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
OBAKER666	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£3.26
watta1993	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£0.99
salmonhead	Big blind		£0.04	£0.10	£6.37
	Your hole cards	A J
777722	Call		£0.04	£0.14	£2.84
acesfull83	Raise		£0.24	£0.38	£4.05
salmonhead	Fold
Lambert180	Call		£0.24	£0.62	£5.45
OBAKER666	Call		£0.22	£0.84	£3.04
watta1993	Fold
777722	Call		£0.20	£1.04	£2.64
Flop
		K 8 7
OBAKER666	Check
777722	Check
acesfull83	Check
Lambert180	Bet		£0.28	£1.32	£5.17
OBAKER666	Raise		£0.56	£1.88	£2.48
777722	Call		£0.56	£2.44	£2.08
acesfull83	Fold
Lambert180	All-in		£5.17	£7.61	£0.00
OBAKER666	All-in		£2.48	£10.09	£0.00
777722	All-in		£2.08	£12.17	£0.00
Lambert180	Unmatched bet		£2.41	£9.76	£2.41
OBAKER666	Show	K A
777722	Show	K 5
Lambert180	Show	A J
Turn
		7
River
		8
Lambert180	Win	Flush to the Ace	£9.04		£11.45

GREGHOGG

Why the weak flop bet? if your gonna c bet gotta make it 70% of pot at least imo give you two ways to win the hand.

As played its fine to get it in on the flop imo

The_Don90

i probably just flat at this level. Although ive never grasped NL4 well.

Dudeskin8

I probz just check behind on flop as someone's bound to have a hand after pre action and if you hit your flush on turn will still get paid as they can't fold a pair.

As played the small bet achieves nothing, got tobe at least 70p but again no need imo when you have close to zero FE.

When they click raise they aren't folding EVER imo so I'd just call here with good odds.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Thoughts on my line?:

Why the weak flop bet? if your gonna c bet gotta make it 70% of pot at least imo give you two ways to win the hand. As played its fine to get it in on the flop imo
Posted by GREGHOGG

This might be incorrect thinking but (this hand was about 30 mins ago) so I remember it very well and my exact thought process was that I wanted to keep everyone in the pot for when I hit my flush while still building the pot up a bit. It was already a decent sized pot because of my raise pre and the amount of callers so I knew I didn't need to make it much bigger before they became pot stuck.

GREGHOGG

In Response to Re: Thoughts on my line?:

I probz just check behind on flop as someone's bound to have a hand after pre action and if you hit your flush on turn will still get paid as they can't fold a pair. As played the small bet achieves nothing, got tobe at least 70p but again no need imo when you have close to zero FE. When they click raise they aren't folding EVER imo so I'd just call here with good odds.
Posted by Dudeskin8

true, but l like flush draws and gamboooling.... prob best to nit call and try to hit a spade but this is why i dont grind nl4 lol

Lambert180

I know I don't have FE, I don't want folds, I made the bet this size because I wanted a call from everyone. I didn't wanna check behind because I think it would be a struggle to get both stacks in if I hit my flush on the turn or river.

Once their raise comes in, I'm happy to get it all in, because of how much they've got behind and if I don't hit on the turn, I aint gonna wanna keep off the aggression so might aswell just get it in now while my odds of hitting it are better (and I still may have an overcard to their pair)

BorinLoner

When we make this shove on the flop, we're making a semi-bluff since against any King we'll have twelve outs at most so we won't be a favourite. That means that for this bet to be profitable we have to take this pot down without a showdown at least some of the time.

This is NL4, so we shouldn't count on folds and our opponents have committed 1/5 and 1/6 of their stacks on the flop so there's not much to suggest that we can get it through.

I do hate the weak bet at this board, to agree with GregHogg. I don't necessarily agree that it has to be 70% of the pot since half-pot is a standard bet and will get the job done, most of the time, if they don't have anything. Betting about 1/4 of the pot is weak and looks weak to your opponents... but it's NL4 so maybe they won't notice. lol

Dudeskin8

Yeah still like check behind, you get free look and stack most randoms at NL4 when you hit.

Also pot will be £1 on turn so 'if you hit' bet 70p pot becomes £2.40 against one stack who has about that behind if they both call turn it's even easier on river. 

Betting flop just inflates pot when you don't have a hand which IMO is bad at NL4. 

Raise when you have it, call when you have good odds or like here a free card.

Lambert180

Well again, yeah they won't notice and secondly, I didn't want them to fold. I wanted to build the pot a bit while keeping everyone in the hand for the times I hit my flush. Obviously when they re-raise the option of building the pot and seeing the turn card for 28p has gone, and I thought (and still do) that putting them all in was a better option than flatting and being in no-mans land when I don't hit the turn.

grantorino

bet flop bigger

flat the raise

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Thoughts on my line?:

I know I don't have FE, I don't want folds, I made the bet this size because I wanted a call from everyone. I didn't wanna check behind because I think it would be a struggle to get both stacks in if I hit my flush on the turn or river. Once their raise comes in, I'm happy to get it all in, because of how much they've got behind and if I don't hit on the turn, I aint gonna wanna keep off the aggression so might aswell just get it in now while my odds of hitting it are better (and I still may have an overcard to their pair)
Posted by Lambert180

you dont want folds :S. So you want to have 50x in on a flush draw with 0% FE Equity.

Little confused but surley you want bigger percentages with 50x in the middle v these kind of oppos.

rancid

bet more on flop

flat raise, good price

shoving with no FE is not great
the dilema of will I get paid if I hit my flush should not be a concern

Plus if your shoving this spot, you do actually want folds, but given oppo's stack sizes this may be not so :S

Betting the flop is a semi bluff and so is the shove, so you want folds
Building the pot for when you hit seems ok but most of the time your building the pot for an oppo that is ahead and will obviously call, remember your going to miss more than you hit

plus 3 bet pre would be ok )

simonnatur

shove seems fine to me , looks like theyre pot committed and we're very likely to have 50% equity in a 3 way coup

( we are not to know that our over card is no good)

surely even at this level, another spade is an action killer.

Dudeskin8

Still not sure why everyone wants to bet this flop 4-way, one thing you don't want to be doing too much of at NL4 is bluffing and against 4 players it's even more bizarre.

And the fact you are then happy flatting raise doesn't make sense as now pot is bigger (when you don't have a hand, and will miss most times) rather then simply check behind keep it small then pile it in when you hit.

As for 3-to-the-flush killing action that is nonsense at this level.

Lambert180

Surely it's the case that I'm not getting the odds to be taking a 2 to 1 shot of hitting my flush HU, but them odds obviously change when there's more opponents and so more money in the pot. The fact I'd been raised and someone had called made me think I was gonna get 2 calls which obviously improve the pot odds greatly.

barnsie

bet flop a lot more 50-70% imo

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: Thoughts on my line?:

bet flop a lot more 50-70% imo
Posted by barnsie

+1, if you're never folding this flop, bet the amount that is most likely to get folds.

I dunno what that is, obv they're rarely folding top pair, but you never know.

I like POTTTTTTTTTTTTTT!

rancid

In Response to Re: Thoughts on my line?:

Surely it's the case that I'm not getting the odds to be taking a 2 to 1 shot of hitting my flush HU, but them odds obviously change when there's more opponents and so more money in the pot. The fact I'd been raised and someone had called made me think I was gonna get 2 calls which obviously improve the pot odds greatly.
Posted by Lambert180

Hear what your saying but your shoving not calling, so your shoving when behind not kowing your going to get two callers and even if you do your still behind.

You don't know for certain what your stack to pot ratio is so.......when you shove you want folds maybe 20% of the time to make it worthwhile +EV - obviously if your getting the right price than call your stack off )

I don't think it's a good idea to shove here thinking you may get two callers so therefore it's ok - but I may be corrected - so for exampple your shoving £5 in to win a possible £15 if two oppo's call - this is what your saying right -

grantorino

In Response to Re: Thoughts on my line?:

Still not sure why everyone wants to bet this flop 4-way, one thing you don't want to be doing too much of at NL4 is bluffing and against 4 players it's even more bizarre. And the fact you are then happy flatting raise doesn't make sense as now pot is bigger (when you don't have a hand, and will miss most times) rather then simply check behind keep it small then pile it in when you hit. As for 3-to-the-flush killing action that is nonsense at this level.
Posted by Dudeskin8

you can prob go either way on deciding to check back or bet the flop. Betting allows us to fold out some weak better hands, get called by worse draws and builds the pot for when we hit. Also ip we can often take a free card on turn if it suits or bet 3 streets when we hit. If a c/r is likely I prefer checking back, but I would think you get called much more often than raised

Once we get c/r shoving flop is prob +EV but we are getting direct odds to call, which seems a better option to me esp if flush wont kill action