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20NL HU Line Check

edited March 2012 in The Poker Clinic

Dont play much HU so just a quick line check

No big pots so far, neither of us has been that aggro. Hes 3bet once or twice I folded. Only even remotely interesting hand has been where he called a flop c/r and turn barrell on  a blank with 2nd pair on flop that picked up flushdraw on turn, river checked thru on a blank, I showed a missed gutshot

Obviously raising flop  or betting turn may be options here, dont think I like raising flop though. Anyone fold river?

grantorino Small blind  £0.10 £0.10 £22.60
Big blind  £0.20 £0.30 £19.90
 Your hole cards
  • 10
  • 9
   
grantorino Raise  £0.50 £0.80 £22.10
VRaise  £1.80 £2.60 £18.10
grantorino Call  £1.40 £4.00 £20.70
Flop
  
  • 10
  • J
  • 5
   
Bet  £2.80 £6.80 £15.30
grantorino Call  £2.80 £9.60 £17.90
Turn
  
  • A
   
Check     
grantorino Check     
River
  
  • A
   
All-in  £15.30 £24.90 £0.00
grantorino Call  £15.30

Comments

  • edited March 2012

    Vs thinking good player i re-raise flop, so many draws he may think you can have and it looks kinda bluffy, and might spa-zz with a tone of junk hands, c/c down the streets overall v weak players is best, i doubt he checks a lot of strong hand on the turn, looks like complete air here imo so checking is prob best, and easy snap call on the river for me, he prob has quad Aces seeing that you are showing this here  though lol

  • edited March 2012

    Not loving the river call as played bit of a sigh one, but i cant fold a flush. I would be most worried about AJ tho. He can also have AK/AQ i suppose which you can beat.

    I would bet the turn and try to get it in there tbh but thats my style of play. If he has 1 high club and a pair he gets it in, or 2 pair. both possible.

    Im not a hu cash expert by any means but the overbet on the end is worrying. I wouldnt rule out a pure bluff, but its very unlikely imo. I still call tho... obv

  • edited March 2012
    thinking about it i dont understand why villain does not barrel the turn, you would expect him to bluff this Turn almost all of the time, AJ kinda fits with his line but im still not worried tbh, AJ its a tiny fraction of his range, i still think its air a lot of the time or worse made hands. I dont play enough heads up im possibly missing something...
  • edited March 2012
     the turn check would really be concerning me. what hes hit hes hit here.  aj -ak, qk, good chance hes hit flush also.
  • edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: 20NL HU Line Check:
    Vs thinking good player i re-raise flop, so many draws he may think you can have and it looks kinda bluffy, and might spa-zz with a tone of junk hands, c/c down the streets overall v weak players is best, i doubt he checks a lot of strong hand on the turn, looks like complete air here imo so checking is prob best, and easy snap call on the river for me, he prob has quad Aces seeing that you are showing this here  though lol
    Posted by WHOAMI196
    Not saying you are wrong, but what draws does he think I raise/fold? If I dont raise/fold many draws, surely he cant shove junk? In any case he didnt seem aggro enough for that, and if I raise flop think Im usually only called by better, or big draws v this guy

    The more I look at it I agree his line looks like air on river, think hes betting 2p+ on that turn nearly 100%, he prob shows up with AQ,AK sometimes as well
  • edited March 2012
    im deffo reraising the flop and all in on the turn with stack sizes so raise to about 6.50 on turn  to get it in on the turn 
  • edited March 2012
    bet turn

    call river
  • edited March 2012
    IDCU- reasons why raising flop>calling

    rancid - reasons why betting turn />checking

    just interested in your reasoning
  • edited March 2012
    In Response to Re: 20NL HU Line Check:
    IDCU- reasons why raising flop />calling rancid - reasons why betting turn />checking just interested in your reasoning
    Posted by grantorino
    Can't think of a good enough reason not to bet turn for value, what do we acheive by checking -
  • edited March 2012

    since neither of you have been aggro flatting flop is fine imo, if you raise you prob turn your hand a little face up, think its safe to say villian isn't going to be 3betting/then cbetting light too often if he hasnt been 3betting you much as you say.

    On turn when he checks, it appears to be either a give up or a pot control, I think we prob need to value bet smallish, he can have some A's in his hand and for a little bit of protection if he has a redraw.

    On river, I'd be a little suprised at the shove, I think you could narrow his range to 1010, JJ, QQ, KK, AK, AQ and possibly AJ/KQ. Might even take 1010 out of his 3 bet range. I can't see a passive player making such a big bluff with nothing. From your description, I can't see any reason for you to believe he has complete air, unless he realised you think he is passive and is using this.

    Really wouldn't be suprised to see I'm totally wrong and he shows 89o for the missed oesd haha.

    Forgot to add that I think I would fold.

  • edited March 2012
    I'm a little alarmed to hear people saying that his pre-flop 3-betting range is really narrow. Removing TT from his HU 3-betting range is a bit hard to believe... If you had been folding to my 3-bets previously my range for 3-betting would include hands from 23o and above. It's heads-up and, if he's a good player, his pre-flop hand can be anything.

    The c-bet on the flop doesn't narrow his range much at all and the check on the turn can't tell you anything. The shove on the river would be a terrible bet as a bluff, though, since you've shown little fear of the flop and the Ace pairing the river makes it unlikely that he hit the Ace on the turn, so it's tough to rep it... Not to say that he hasn't made the shove as a bluff, since I don't know how good he is, but a moderately-good player is usually making this shove hoping to get maximum value from a Jack or Ten.

    The problem is that HU is all about meta-game. I don't know much about your opponent or his image of you. If I was your opponent, I'd never shove any hand on the river so it's hard to know why he's done it. If I was you, I'd raise the flop... but without any knowledge of either of you it's impossible to say. Different opponents require different analysis and that's never more true than in heads-up play.
  • edited March 2012
    "neither of us have been that aggro"

    "hes 3 bet once or twice, I folded"

    stated on OP

    If I've played a guy heads up for an hour or two and hes only 3 bet me 1 or 2 times then I think you can say his 3 bet range is narrow. Of course OP doesn't suggest how big his sample may be, however early indications would appear villian is not 3 betting wide. So 1010 may not be in his range.
  • edited March 2012
    Surely TT would be in every players pre-flop 3-betting range heads-up, unless they're a calling station. If someone's that exploitable I doubt anyone would feel the need to post on the clinic about them. 

    The fact that there's only been one noteworthy hand doesn't suggest that there have been a great many hands played between the two and having seen your opponent fold to your 3-bets, apparently every time, you would surely open up your 3-betting range. Considering this player has apparently 3-bet on a couple of ocassions before, are we really going to assume that they've always had JJ or better?

    That's not to say that he's always going to 3-bet TT or better - he might feel there are better ways to get value from them - but I don't think we can say that TT isn't in his range for making the 3-bet.
  • edited March 2012
    Ill prob get told off again by Talon for being results orientated, but what did the villain have please GT ? :)
  • edited March 2012
    not playing villain that long. hes certainly not over aggressive and hasnt 3bet much but he doesnt seem to be a station either

    Borin, he shouldnt have a 100% 3betting range imo, from what I've seen of him its unlikely. Would think its wider than JJ+ and Ak though and may well include bluffs

    raising flop seems meh to me, as I think hes likely to fold most worse hand or continue with better or tonnes of outs. Maybe he 3bets stuff like AQ enough though

    turn I dont think he has many hands will call off 2streets, expect him to bet 2p+ nearly all the time here (is this reasonable?) The thing I dont like most about checking the turn is possibility of action killer on river

    villain showed air, something like 56o. Thanks for replies, I think I suck at hu so any advice is appreciated
  • edited March 2012
    My point about having a 100% 3-betting range wasn't that I'd 3-bet every time, just that I'd consider 3-betting with any hand if I see that my 3-bets get through a reasonable number of times (he apparently has the same idea, showing 56o). Obviously 3-betting every single time would be exploitable but HU you can't wait for big hands to do it with or that will be too easy to read. I think you'd agree that TT is a hand that's well within his range for 3-betting. I was just surprised at the suggestion that we could ever take it out of his 3-bet range.

    Heads-up is all about aggression but that doesn't mean there's a right way to do it. I might be willing to play 23o, out of position but it's all about meta-game and getting in your opponent's head. There's no hard and fast advice, just don't give your opponent too much credit for having strong hands just because he makes strong bets.
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