Flush draw v over pair

Grae

Thoughts on this hand please...

I don't have any reads on the BB as they have only been on the table for a few hands.  I raise in the SB with QJs and when the reraise comes I want to see the flop.  If it had been a more marginal hand I would have binned it.  When the BB bets a pot size bet on the flop I put them on KQ+ or KK+, I think the chances of QQ are slim here.  With top pair and a flush draw I reckon I have enough outs to make the call.  On the turn when the 2 pairs up and the BB pushes I put them on KK+ and to me the push was more about protecting the hand and trying to get me to fold rather than chance having a tough decision on the river if a heart hits.  With 9 hearts and 2 queens as outs I made the call.

Did I play this right and is my reasoning sound?

PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalanceGraeSmall blind £0.05£0.05£9.85coko72Big blind £0.10£0.15£11.54 Your hole cardsJQ   finnpaulFold    skimmercfcFold    GraeRaise £0.25£0.40£9.60coko72Raise £1.00£1.40£10.54GraeCall £0.80£2.20£8.80Flop  Q62   GraeCheck    coko72Bet £2.20£4.40£8.34GraeCall £2.20£6.60£6.60Turn  2   GraeCheck    coko72All-in £8.34£14.94£0.00GraeAll-in £6.60£21.54£0.00coko72Unmatched bet £1.74£19.80£1.74GraeShowJQ   coko72ShowKK   River  J   coko72WinTwo Pairs, Kings and 2s£18.40 £20.14

Dudeskin8

If on the btn can maybe call but OOP for rest of hand I fold pre, also that size 3bet is pretty large.

Rest looks fine, if you're gonna call pre you can't be ever folding postflop with TP + FD.

FlashFlush

I fold pre, its a big raise and out of position. Once you hit that kind of flop I don't think you can fold really. Your only calling the turn shove because you have top pair to go with your flush draw. You shouldn't be calling a turn bet more than about £2 - £3 as your only going to hit the flush 1 in 4 but there is still some potential value if you do hit. 

grantorino

Fold pre oop readless. QJ is a pretty horrible hand to flat a 3bet with, its dominated by nearly his entire range and has massive rio issues

Flop is fine

Turn shows why calling pre sucks, you flop the world, usually have around 12 outs and still prob should fold

BorinLoner

I hate QJ. Grantorino has covered the reasons why you should hate it.

The turn is a pretty simple pot-odds decision:
If you're certain that he has an overpair, not a made full-house, then you have a meagre eleven outs. That gives us about a 25% chance of winning. So we need pot odds of 3/1 to make this call correct. We're being asked to call for £6.60 and so the pot would need to be at least £19.80. The pot is only £14.94 so, by the numbers, it's a fold.

Personally though, if I flop top-pair and a flush draw I'm not check-calling, I'm check-raising all-in.

bolly580

bet flop, shove turn

grantorino

In Response to Re: Flush draw v over pair:

I hate QJ. Grantorino has covered the reasons why you should hate it. The turn is a pretty simple pot-odds decision: If you're certain that he has an overpair, not a made full-house, then you have a meagre eleven outs. That gives us about a 25% chance of winning. So we need pot odds of 3/1 to make this call correct. We're being asked to call for £6.60 and so the pot would need to be at least £19.80. The pot is only £14.94 so, by the numbers, it's a fold. Personally though, if I flop top-pair and a flush draw I'm not check-calling, I'm check-raising all-in.
Posted by BorinLoner

c/r that flop seems kinda bad to me readless, we dont fare too well v his calling range usually, and shouldnt need to protect

BorinLoner

Well, we do fare well against his calling range. Against an overpair on this flop we've got 14 outs and so we're a very slight underdog. The dead-money in the middle is what makes it worth shoving for and if we take it down here we should be happy with that. Also, if we don't get it in here and a scare card comes on the turn, we could easily lose value against over-pairs and other Queens that would call here.

AMYBR

Tournament I fold pre, cash, just plays itself mostly.  I look to get it in on flop

BorinLoner

Totally agree. Fold it pre-flop... if you get to that flop, get it in.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Flush draw v over pair:

Well, we do fare well against his calling range. Against an overpair on this flop we've got 14 outs and so we're a very slight underdog. The dead-money in the middle is what makes it worth shoving for and if we take it down here we should be happy with that. Also, if we don't get it in here and a scare card comes on the turn, we could easily lose value against over-pairs and other Queens that would call here.
Posted by BorinLoner

We may be able to make a slightly +EV shove, doesnt mean its better than calling

We shouldnt be happy if we take it down, he never folds a better hand

Dont get what hands you think we lose value against that would call a flop shove, not sure how we can lose value v better hands

BorinLoner

Well no, it's not ideal to get it in as a dog, even a slight one, but we can get called by worse here. Even if we are a slight dog, the dead money in the pot makes up for that. In fact, if we make the check-raise the dead money pretty much means that both we and our opponent would be right to get it in here.

When I say we should be happy to take down the dead money, I'm not saying it's the ideal scenario, just that we should be happy about it. Obviously it would be ideal to hit our hand and get paid the maximum but adding that £4.40 to our stack is certainly not a bad thing.