NL100 Master Cash - Line Check

EvilPingu

Was splashing about on a Master Cash table and this happened.

Happy with how I played it pre-flop and on the flop. After that, I think TommyD is letting me donk my money off to him, until I skilfully bink on the river and he pretty much snap folds to my river bet, as if I had my AK face-up. Should I have done anything different, or is my problem simply that I'm up against TommyD and I'm out of position?

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
EvilPingu	Small blind		£0.50	£0.50	£221.77
Doooobs	Big blind		£1.00	£1.50	£205.22
	Your hole cards	A K
Beardy200	Fold
yoyo	Fold
TommyD	Raise		£3.00	£4.50	£372.32
EvilPingu	Raise		£9.50	£14.00	£212.27
Doooobs	Fold
TommyD	Call		£7.00	£21.00	£365.32
Flop
		J 4 8
EvilPingu	Bet		£13.00	£34.00	£199.27
TommyD	Call		£13.00	£47.00	£352.32
Turn
		5
EvilPingu	Bet		£24.00	£71.00	£175.27
TommyD	Call		£24.00	£95.00	£328.32
River
		A
EvilPingu	Bet		£56.00	£151.00	£119.27
TommyD	Fold
EvilPingu	Muck
EvilPingu	Win		£93.20		£212.47
EvilPingu	Return		£56.00	£1.80	£268.47

rancid

be careful up there Pingu )

LOL_RAISE

this deep id bet bigger on each street tbh

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grantorino

yeah bigger pre , turn and river

WHOAMI196

Your barrel size on the turn is kinda bad tbh, if you had AA, kk, qq, even AJ would you bet £24 into 47? i doubt it, also the 5 is a good card for tommyD's range, i bet if he knew your tendencies more, you'd be facing a re-raise on that turn but he could have ~77, jx type hand seeing that he did not raise?, as played i fire small v-bet on the river around ~30, your bet is way too big to ever get called with worse imo.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: NL100 Master Cash - Line Check:

Your barrel size on the turn is kinda bad tbh, if you had AA, kk, qq, even AJ would you bet £24 into 47? i doubt it, also the 5 is a good card for tommyD's range, i bet if he knew your tendencies more, you'd be facing a re-raise on that turn but he could have ~77, jx type hand seeing that he did not raise?, as played i fire small v-bet on the river around ~30, your bet is way too big to ever get called with worse imo.
Posted by WHOAMI196

I'm not really criticising this point, Whoam, I'm just wondering if you could explain why you'd doubt it? I always consider a half-pot bet to be pretty standard.

BorinLoner

Anyway, since we're so deep I think we can make the pre-flop 3-bet a little bigger but the rest of your play is pretty close to how I'd go about it. C-betting the flop is natural and you're forced to fire at the turn too, or you'd just be giving TommyD the green light to bluff you.

Out of interest, if you'd missed the river, what was the plan? Were you firing the third bullet? I've never played TommyD but of course know that he's a very capable player.

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: NL100 Master Cash - Line Check:

In Response to Re: NL100 Master Cash - Line Check : I'm not really criticising this point, Whoam, I'm just wondering if you could explain why you'd doubt it? I always consider a half-pot bet to be pretty standard.
Posted by BorinLoner

half potting value hands on most turns is a leak when not considering if playing for stacks, if you have a value hand you would want to have <psb to shove on the river to extract max value, not 120 into 95 as you are less likely to. 

27 into 47 doesn't really achieve much here either tbh, its neither a bluff or extracting value(as explained), really its making life easy for tommyd on the button, because of the small bet he has a choice on what to do... i mean bluffing here will not be very expensive and will not commit him, he could decide to peel river with bluff catchers, could put you in tough spots, or just allow you to hang yourself.

Totally dependant on how you play ovc, but its not a balanced bet size, if bluffing here esp if plan is to fire 3 barrels, the same with value hands you need <psb to make it believable ...so the best line would be,.. bet, bet, shove, .....not bet,bet, check/bet/fold.

BorinLoner

I understand where you're coming from but I just feel that if we bet the same with both made hands and bluffing hands it will produce a neutral result in comparison with bigger bets. By that I mean that if we half-pot we'll get less from our value hands but will also lose less when we bluff. I don't think it would be any more exploitable than making bigger bets, as long as we don't vary our bet-sizing due to hand strength.

WHOAMI196

In Response to Re: NL100 Master Cash - Line Check:

I understand where you're coming from but I just feel that if we bet the same with both made hands and bluffing hands it will produce a neutral result in comparison with bigger bets. By that I mean that if we half-pot we'll get less from our value hands but will also lose less when we bluff. I don't think it would be any more exploitable than making bigger bets, as long as we don't vary our bet-sizing due to hand strength.
Posted by BorinLoner

its a 3-bet pot! heros bluff bet size will rarely work because of this, in a standard opened pot then your actions are not as polarised, and your small half pot sized bluffs can work a lot of the time, esp whe the pot size is more controlable and IP.

ref OPs hand its best to c/f turn imo than fire turn with that bet size,  c/f this hand either way is best for imo.

BorinLoner

I do agree that the main problem in this hand is that we're out of position. I just don't see a problem with the bet-sizing, even in a 3-bet pot, as long as we're making the same bets with strong hands as we are with bluffs in these 3-bet pots. In the short-term we might be less successful with our bluffs but we'll be more successful with our value bets. After all, we'd play this hand the same way with AA, KK, QQ or JJ as we have here with AK. In the long-term we'd expect our opponents to understand our game better so this gap will close and our bluffs will become more successful and our value-bets less-so. Overall, I'm still pretty sure that the value would be neutral in comparison with bigger bets. I might be wrong - it has been known to happen.

I don't mind the check-fold on the turn but nor do I mind the bet. It really depends on table-dynamic as to which is better. In a vacuum I don't think either is wrong. It depends on how tight our table image is.