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FT - Folded a 5high flush on a 4flush board
FT of the £20 guaranteed, is this a fold?
| Player | Action | Cards | Amount | Pot | Balance |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| mag70 | Small blind | 300.00 | 300.00 | 7925.00 | |
| ewee71 | Big blind | 600.00 | 900.00 | 8905.00 | |
| Your hole cards |
| ||||
| Lambert180 | Raise | 1200.00 | 2100.00 | 25817.50 | |
| zulu22 | Fold | ||||
| masie | Fold | ||||
| rubberduk | Fold | ||||
| mag70 | Fold | ||||
| ewee71 | Call | 600.00 | 2700.00 | 8305.00 | |
| Flop | |||||
| |||||
| ewee71 | Check | ||||
| Lambert180 | Check | ||||
| Turn | |||||
| |||||
| ewee71 | Check | ||||
| Lambert180 | Check | ||||
| River | |||||
| |||||
| ewee71 | Bet | 2700.00 | 5400.00 | 5605.00 | |
| Lambert180 | Fold | ||||
| ewee71 | Muck | ||||
| ewee71 | Win | 2700.00 | 8305.00 | ||
| ewee71 | Return | 2700.00 | 0.00 | 11005.00 | |
Comments
Failing that, bet turn.
As played, bin it.
No reason not to fire 1700 -1900 on flop.
As played fold river.
I know when he's 2nd in chips and on the bubble, he aint gonna wanna call a shove from the chip leader (me) with many hands but it just seemed like an unnecessary risk. I didn't mind him calling my raise and us playing a flop, but not potentially flipping or being crushed
Regards,
The TV Team
Got to agree with Evilpingu (As I find myself doing frequently). This is a lovely flop to c-bet. The BB can call the min-raise pre-flop with a huge range of hands and this is one of the things we're hoping for when making the min-raise. The dead money in the pot is yours until he tells you otherwise. Just take it. Half-pot should do the job.
But we arent neccessarily folding to a shove from the blinds so dont want to give them option to shove a paint range on us that folds to a shove.
If we ARENT willing to flip vs a shove from the blinds prefer a fold UTG as dont want to be in a spot where we are min folding here.
How many flops are we liking when stationed? + we cant c-bet given their stacks....well we can but will get ugly quick.
Folding is fine but if we're entering this pot I like the min-raise. I'd do the same.
Just prefer to put the hard decision on them pre, negating their option to shove paint (or better) - or just get out of the way pre.
If Blind stacks are deeper happy enough to make a standard raise. Here I prob just fold pre, or ship depending on the midseats and Lag factor.
Edit: As said though, as played am always betting that flop.
Admittedlly, this is a tight decision pre-flop because of position. Nine or ten-handed I probably let it go but six-handed I'd probably just fall on the side of making the raise. The thing is, I'm willing to accept not winning this pot as well as the chance of taking it down here. Min-raising then folding will do wonders for your image and as long as your doing the same thing with big hands, I don't mind giving my opponents a little encouragement to 3-bet me. At some point, I'll have the hand and with a large stack I can afford to take the short-term knock for the long-term gain. If they start 3-betting these min-raises it's pretty simple to just tighten-up and wait for the hand to trap them with.
I agree, there's a chance they'll hit the flop and maybe check-raise us... but that'll happen only 1/3 times and we'll win it 2/3 times with our c-bet. If it goes wrong it might cost us 2550 chips (against a BB call) in total. That's not so bad.
The effect of playing it this way isn't likely to be of huge benefit to our stack, though I generally see small profits from it, long-term. The real benefit is that by playing a wide range and giving ourselves a loose image, we get paid off more often when we have big hands. The alternative is that we only play big hands UTG, or that we are forced to shove with those big hands in order to balance our UTG range. We can't min-bet big hands and shove marginal ones without becoming exploitable.
Taking much of the obv Tstrategy that you mention off the table.
If you told me that the BB's name was lolufold or TommyD I'd suggest a different course of action but usually I'd just target these stacks, assuming they're weak until I see different. I'd fancy that the overall play would be profitable as well as setting up my table image for later.
In this instance I think the min is an error vs blind stack sizes, given the limited options they have for playing their hand
Our hand will obv play badly vs any connection or draw, that oppo will play supper aggro with shallow stack.
We have a comfortable, playable, 40bb stack. Do we really want to be in a position to invest 25% so precariously?
As for the hand ranges, we both know there are massive variations in the hands that different players will shove with. I don't think poor players are shoving too often with QJ or worse. I can't prove that but it wouldn't take me long to cotton on to a particular players 3-betting range if it differed from this.
Your way we are minning pre and investing another 2.5ish bbs with a cbet that is virtually always going to be a bluff, being played back at with a crai shove from better hands and draws - draws that will virtually always be flips, but we wont be able to tell the difference if we are behind or against a draw.
So we invest 4.5bigs trying to win a hand against the ropes, best case case scenario where no one else but blind(s) enter pot. More than one caller our c-bet becomes bigger or we are plain c/fing. Oppo only begins hand with 13bbs, So we can use 5 bbs to attempt to take down a pot that is always going to be played blind for the most part, or we can use 13 to force out even money flips that opt to shove on us when we min, potentially better pps, dont allow us to be bluffed off pot or allow oppo's find draws.
So I prefer a shove pre to isolate the blind, giving us opportunity to pick up blinds uncontested or get it in on a flip where we have made oppo decide for Tlife OR a plain fold pre UTG.
In honesty I lean far more on the fold pre. I think there are obv strong merits on both arguments we have outlined. Just a matter of personal preference, balance of small ball & aggression. This isnt a spot where I would bother with small ball, nor image.
If stacks are deeper this hand obv plays different.
I know what you're saying and most of what you say is tough to disagree with. Definitely nothing wrong with the fold but it will give you different problems when you want to get value from your made hands. Those problems won't be any bigger than the problems that can be caused by min-raising these spots... but then problems are where the skill of the game lies, aren't they?
I can't say for certain which way is better but I can say that neither way is wrong.
I dont know if you misunderstood what I meant with being crai on flop by a draw. Point being we wont know the diff between being beat or being against a draw with 5 high, so it would always be a fold anyway, tieing into what I mentioned around any c-bet virtually always being a bluff vs the shallow stack.
The second part in regard to value: for a variety of reasons I'd likely be shoving top of my range pre vs the stack sizes @ table. Am sure you dont need me to expand on why, answering what you mention/imply on balancing.
Enjoyed the debate. Respect both lines. Its just for me the stacks in blinds are too shallow for the pay off of painting self into corner. Commit to a potential flip for 25% with pressure on them - or fold for me.
This is why I like the forum though. I'm not dim enough to think I'm always "right" but I think it helps to defend your position to confirm to yourself that you're not "wrong". Of course, if someone convinces you that you are wrong that's even more valuable, but it takes reasoned arguments to do either. I much prefer your replies on these threads to those who reply with three or four words, with the greatest of respect to them.
Watch any high profile Poker TV show. Always a pro analyse section, four pros pick apart hands in hindsight on current EPT season. They very very rarely agree. But their reasons make each pov correct.
Being what you mention. If you cant defend your POV you dont have a POV to begin with
Agree forum is massively beneficial in terms of articulating thought process and applying it.
Am sure someone will be happy to come along later (.....Grantorino perhaps?) and tell us we are both wrong
Fun debate though
Seeing as I'm here though
1. I think openfolding pre is absolutely fine. If you are folding to a 3bet there is very little difference in opening 55 and atc this shallow
2. If you do minopen, its going to be a pretty marginal decision in terms of pure chip EV whether to call or fold, unless blinds are ultratight. May be decent tournament strategy related reasons to fold
3 Shoving pre sound ok to me, and makes it difficult for them to call without very top of range, they will fold some hands they shove over a minopen. If you do this you need to balance your range and do it with big hands. With stacks the way they are shoving any hand you open mightnt be that bad a strategy, but I dont really like shoving 55 unless you shove all your opening range
4. The one thing I would really disagree with is when BL said he doesnt mind encouraging them to 3bet (I understand its not the end of the world if they 3bet us this particular time). Its much better if they keep flatting and folding imo as we can open junk profitably much easier and we get junk much more often than big hands
Postflop if you cbet, Im not sure its as auto a fold as you guys seem to think if we get jammed on, prob is a fold though
flop - prefer c bet and just take it down if you that way inclined and playing to build your stack )
or delayed turn c bet is fine
fold river
fred has become over complicated )