QQ in SB on.10/.20 cash Vs 2 aggro opponents

silentbob

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
silentbob	Small blind		£0.10	£0.10	£23.44
sarge2009	Big blind		£0.20	£0.30	£8.36
	Your hole cards	Q Q
*SUPER VILLAIN 1*	Raise		£0.60	£0.90	£21.84
quiller	Fold
*SUPER VILLAIN 2*	Call		£0.60	£1.50	£22.75
Prent	Fold
silentbob	Raise		£1.90	£3.40	£21.54
sarge2009	Fold
*SUPER VILLAIN 1*	Call		£1.40	£4.80	£20.44
*SUPER VILLAIN 2*	Call		£1.40	£6.20	£21.35
Flop
		8 3 6
silentbob	Bet		£5.00	£11.20	£16.54
*SUPER VILLAIN 1*	Fold
*SUPER VILLAIN 2*	Call		£5.00	£16.20	£16.35
Turn
		10
silentbob	All-in		£16.54	£32.74	£0.00
*SUPER VILLAIN 2*	All-in		£16.35	£49.09	£0.00
silentbob	Unmatched bet		£0.19	£48.90	£0.19
silentbob	Show	Q Q
*SUPER VILLAIN 2*	Show	K 10
River
		5
*SUPER VILLAIN 2*	Win	Flush to the King	£47.10		£47.10

Super villain 1 has been open min raising almost every hand regardless of position so to be honest, with him I could be up against anything from 22+, any two paint or any ace here & SV2, like most of the table had been calling the raises, so although I was sure I was ahead I didn't want to let them see a flop cheaply.

What I could really do with is some advice on a couple of things here:

1 - Was my PF 3bet big enough? 
2 - Flop & turn play. Too much or not enough?

As I've stated on other threads when it comes to pot odds & the like that's not one of the strong points of my game so I do play quite a bit on instinct but would this have made that much difference here or was I just up against one of those people that have more money than sense.

I think I played this OK but if anyone can tell me otherwise & help explain what I did wrong then it would be greatly appreciated.

Talon

  Firstly you were just unlucky.

  Your preflop raise because V1 called it then V2 was getting over 3 to 1 odds to make the call and in that situation he was only a 2 to 1 underdog to you so his preflop call was spot on. A much larger raise would probably have got him off though.
  On the flop if he figures that he is behind then he need to gets given odds of 2 to 1 to hit his flush redraw and you gave him just over 2 to 1 so he was right to call. If you suspect that in this situation that someone might be on a flush draw then overbetting the pot is the only way to take away the other players odds.

 On the turn after he had hit top pair then it wouldnt have mattered if you had bet an entire row of houses he would still have called so the size of your turn bet was immaterial. But it was a perfect size bet to make if he hadnt have got a 10 in his hand.
  The villain in this hand did nothing wrong and was continually calling when the odds were in his favour.
  Your mistakes were not that big but enough to give your opponent the odds.
  For me it needed a chunkier raise preflop, it might have taken down a small pot there and then but that is better than losing a big one.
 When any flop comes down that gives you worries about a possible flush draw then remember that a pot size bet gives the correct odds to call for a flush. To eliminate giving the odds then overbet the pot, again may take down smallish pot there and then but better than giving your opponent an escape route into winning the pot.

  Sometimes though people will just call for a flush draw no matter what the odds are and those are the players you want to play against.

 Hope this helps in some way

silentbob

Thanks for the reply Talon

That's exactly the kind of advice I need. Like I said, odds & the like are not a strong point of my game so although I thought I was betting a decent amount I now see that it wasn't enough.

Out of interest, what sort of PF raise would you have suggested?

Talon

Into a £1.50 pot with interest from two opponents you would have to be looking in the region of about £4 to make it of any significance. This should remove all speculative hands from the pot and show great strength in your hand.

   The problem is with this is that the pot size will get out of control very quickly. Some people are not in their comfort zone in that situation. But basically if you decide to go to bat with QQ then make them pay through the nose for every card they want to see. If you are not happy with pots get out of control quickly then find a table that has less aggression on it.

  For the record i prefer playing small pot poker so i would have done everything i could to keep the pot small preflop then become overly aggressive on the flop, but that is my style. We all play our own way

stokesyph

In Response to Re: QQ in SB on.10/.20 cash Vs 2 aggro opponents:

  Firstly you were just unlucky.   Your preflop raise because V1 called it then V2 was getting over 3 to 1 odds to make the call and in that situation he was only a 2 to 1 underdog to you so his preflop call was spot on. A much larger raise would probably have got him off though.   On the flop if he figures that he is behind then he need to gets given odds of 2 to 1 to hit his flush redraw and you gave him just over 2 to 1 so he was right to call. If you suspect that in this situation that someone might be on a flush draw then overbetting the pot is the only way to take away the other players odds.  On the turn after he had hit top pair then it wouldnt have mattered if you had bet an entire row of houses he would still have called so the size of your turn bet was immaterial. But it was a perfect size bet to make if he hadnt have got a 10 in his hand.   The villain in this hand did nothing wrong and was continually calling when the odds were in his favour.   Your mistakes were not that big but enough to give your opponent the odds.   For me it needed a chunkier raise preflop, it might have taken down a small pot there and then but that is better than losing a big one.  When any flop comes down that gives you worries about a possible flush draw then remember that a pot size bet gives the correct odds to call for a flush. To eliminate giving the odds then overbet the pot, again may take down smallish pot there and then but better than giving your opponent an escape route into winning the pot.   Sometimes though people will just call for a flush draw no matter what the odds are and those are the players you want to play against.  Hope this helps in some way
Posted by Talon

This is wrong - U don't need to overbet the pot to take away their odds. He was not getting the odds assuming u were going to bet again on the turn. U didn't do much wrong bob - the 3bet should have been bigger but other than that the hand is played fine

silentbob

In Response to Re: QQ in SB on.10/.20 cash Vs 2 aggro opponents:

In Response to Re: QQ in SB on.10/.20 cash Vs 2 aggro opponents : This is wrong - U don't need to overbet the pot to take away their odds. He was not getting the odds assuming u were going to bet again on the turn. U didn't do much wrong bob - the 3bet should have been bigger but other than that the hand is played fine
Posted by stokesyph

Thanks Stoke, is this to do with implied odds then or am I getting confused with something entirely different?

Talon

  Stoke is wrong on this because you were offering odds of over 2 to 1 to hit a 2 to 1 shot so a flush draw that strong will call all day long. The concept of implied odds would be when you call when not getting the odds because you can either fold on the next card and not lose too much or hit you miracle card and get royally paid above the actual odds. If you used implied odds on this pot then it would reinforce the fact that the bet on the flop was not enough.

diablo_pez

You did nothing wrong Silentbob.....anyone playing K10s isn't folding that flop and definitely not after the turn....nature of the beast i'm afraid

stokesyph

In Response to Re: QQ in SB on.10/.20 cash Vs 2 aggro opponents:

  Stoke is wrong on this because you were offering odds of over 2 to 1 to hit a 2 to 1 shot so a flush draw that strong will call all day long. The concept of implied odds would be when you call when not getting the odds because you can either fold on the next card and not lose too much or hit you miracle card and get royally paid above the actual odds. If you used implied odds on this pot then it would reinforce the fact that the bet on the flop was not enough.
Posted by Talon

It's 2 to 1 if he gets to see the turn and river but it is 4 to 1 if he only gets to see the turn.

silentbob

Thanks for the advice, the general consensus seems to be pretty much what I thought in that I didn't really play it too bad but I really need to get to grips with my betting sizes.

On to the next one

Talon

  I hope that i did not appear overcritical in what i said. On the whole you were just unlucky and the hands played themselves after the flop. You did nothing particularly wrong, i was just giving a few pointers for slight improvements that is all. The main thing to realise from this scenario is that the villain did nothing wrong either. Personally i think 99% of the players on this site would have done their stack the same as you, it was just one of those things.

 Hopefully your luck improves and you find some fish to pay you off.
  And one last piece of advice NEVER play against anyone called villain because they always seem to win

silentbob

No you weren't overcritical at all Talon. TBH, it's exactly that sort of advice I was looking for. As I said, I was fairly certain that I generally played it OK but with not having the greatest mathematical brain I didn't know if there was any way I could've taken the pot away from V2 at any stage.

FWIW, are we always to assume that someone's on a flush draw whenever 2 of the same suits come on the flop or is that too cautious?

Talon

  In reality having your cards suited only adds about 2% to their value but most people will over play cards if they are suited.  You should not always assume that a flush draw is on the cards because even if they do come along with suited cards there is only a 1 in 4 chance that they have the right suit.
   The main thing to be aware of when the flop comes down is the texture of the flop. That is does the flop give potential straight or flush draws. Then it comes down to trying to put your opponent on a hand to see if he could be drawing on that board.
   The main thing is to be aware of these things but dont go so far as to be paranoid about them