Flopping a set in a raised pot

BigBluster

Scenario: Everyone is deep-stacked. You're in the big blind with 66. The hand is raised from middle position, called by two late position players and you call from the Big Blind.

The flop comes A96 rainbow.

I notice that 99% of players who flop a set in this position go for a check-raise. Personally, I prefer to lead into the pre-flop raiser.

Thoughts please.

offshoot

I dunno, leading into 3 people kinda says you have a hand better than one pair that you want 3 streets of value from and on this board no one is likely to have better than a pair often so it isnt gonna happen. I would insta-fold but im sure loads of donks call off with AJ here so i guess its not terrible. c/raising this flop is beyond awful though.

BigBluster

In Response to Re: Flopping a set in a raised pot:

I dunno, leading into 3 people kinda says you have a hand better than one pair that you want 3 streets of value from and on this board no one is likely to have better than a pair often so it isnt gonna happen. I would insta-fold but im sure loads of donks call off with AJ here so i guess its not terrible. c/raising this flop is beyond awful though.
Posted by offshoot

So you would check/call?

dowzer

In Response to Flopping a set in a raised pot:

Scenario: Everyone is deep-stacked. You're in the big blind with 66. The hand is raised from middle position, called by two late position players and you call from the Big Blind. The flop comes A96 rainbow. I notice that 99% of players who flop a set in this position go for a check-raise. Personally, I prefer to lead into the pre-flop raiser. Thoughts please.
Posted by BigBluster

The key here is to mix your play up - sometimes I will bet out, other times I will check call and see what the turn brings or check raise. If you do the same thing every time people can start to learn your play and you put yourself at a disadvantage in future pots.

offshoot

probably. i dont see why not. It depends on the opponentsand what you expect them to call with. I guess if the pre flop raiser is aggressive and you think he might raise then leading can be good. But i would prefer to check, let the pre flop raise bet his air, hopefully someone else call with an ace and then c/raise turn or river.  I just dont see the need to lead out to build a pot when theres 3 other poeple who will do it for you. If it was HU on the flop then leading would be quite good.

phil12uk

The A on flop shoulda hit someone so I'd def lead out - if only half pot.  Any callers pretty much defines they have an Ace and u can then milk it on next 2 streets. By checking, u do allow everyone to get a free card and lose out on a chance to build the pot.

offshoot

In Response to Re: Flopping a set in a raised pot:

In Response to Flopping a set in a raised pot : The key here is to mix your play up - sometimes I will bet out, other times I will check call and see what the turn brings or check raise. If you do the same thing every time people can start to learn your play and you put yourself at a disadvantage in future pots.
Posted by dowzer

Mixing up your play would imply your trying to make it hard for your opponent to put you on a hand. When you lead out here your opponent is never gonna think its a bluff so its making you easier to read. It would be better to lead here with air rather than a set. if you c/call all your sets and your weaker hands then at least yiour balancing your range and your opponent doesnt know whether your just hanging in there with a weak hand or slowplaying a monster. This is also why c/raising this flop is terrible. Its something you would never do as a bluff.

BigBluster

As stated, I would lead out in the above scenario. But I would also lead out with a hand like 9Ts on the premise that:
a) my pair of nines might well be the best hand, and
b) the A could scare off TT or JJ.

By leading out with both a set and middle pair, is this enough to make me unpredictable?

offshoot

well i dont think leading out 9T is great but if you do that it makes leading out with a set probably the best play in this scenario. When out lead out with a 9 you are turning your hand into a bluff so you might aswell do it when you have complete air rather than a hand with showdown value. If youre only objective is to get the person to fold it doesnt matter what you have.

VIRUSXXX

IMO,

You need to be thinking about stacks, and what you know of your opponents.... What is going to be the most effective way of getting the money in the middle?

Aggro or passive opponents would determine whether you need to build the pot or let them do the betting for you. What is your image?
Does the original raiser have a defined hand range? Will they c-bet?
By check calling will the value of keeping the other player in the pot outweigh the risk?

There are so many other factors that you need to consider in order to extract the maximum value - but that's the fun of the game!  Enjoy!

huuuuume

check call> lead out> check raise

the biggest problem with leading out here is - how do u then play the turn? i dont know what stakes you're playing but im certain that 'milking' again on the turn and river is unlikely even against big aces. 

your options on the turn are raise or check.  neither is profitable. neither will create a big pot and maximise the value of your hand

T_Force

I find that when you hit a big hand in a multiway pot, you should always assume someone out there has something. Start building the pot early, and then any bets on subsequent streets will be larger and the pot quickly builds.

Imagine you're in a 4 way unraised pot playing £1/£2 and you flop your set. I hope that you're committed to stacking off here unless the board is utterly terrifying, by the way.

Let's say the flop you talk about comes down - A, x, x rainbow. The pot is £8.

Where someone has AK and you flop your set, you are Golden here. Don't slow play it, just raise. Make it a fiver to continue.  If someone calls hopefully they will turn two pair or trips and you can now bet even more. There is now £18 in the pot assuming just one called. No matter what the turn is, hopefully it doesn't pair the board, and now you can bet at least a tenner. AK calls again since he has no reason to suspect he's behind every time, and people rarely fold TPTK on a non-scary board to 3/4 pot bets. Now there's £28 in the pot.

Let's not get carried away - river is another brick. You can lead out for up to £20 here and expect a call a lot of the time. You just made a nice £68 pot. SHIP IT.

if you check, you lose a whole street of value. The pot is only £8 on the turn. Now your 3/4 pot bet of a fiver leaves your pot at only £18 on the turn instead of £28. Now when you bet on the river, you're only getting another tenner out of the guy for a total pot of £38.

Remember how the flop looks to everyone else. An ace is a scary card since people play aces. Why slow play on a board where you're only getting action from people with hands? You define who has the goods to play along nice and early and milk them for as much as you can get on every street. That's pretty much it.

offshoot

if you check you dont lose any value as anyone with an Ace will bet the flop. It also means you can c/raise turn and shove river to get your whole stack in.

T_Force

In Response to Re: Flopping a set in a raised pot:

if you check you dont lose any value as anyone with an Ace will bet the flop. It also means you can c/raise turn and shove river to get your whole stack in.
Posted by offshoot

You expect people with an ace to bet the flop? Not every time, especially not a board like that. There's no draw, nothing scary. And also why give them the option? I bet every time. You might even get lucky and get them to raise you then and there.

BigBluster

In one of those life-is-stranger-than-fiction scenarios, I just played this hand in the last 5 minutes.

I'm in the big blind with 66 in level 3 of a BH. UTG raises 3BB, two others call, I call. All stacks are roughly equal.

Flop Comes:
QT6 rainbow.

I bet out 2/3rds pot, UTG raiser shoves all-in, other guys fold. I call (a must in a MTT).

Showdown:
Villain: KK
Me: 66

Turn: 9
River: K

BOOM! I'm gone from the tourney.

huuuuume

sorry but thats an awful hand to post to try and back up your point

u have posted a hand that 1) is pretty much a cooler and 2) is a bounty hunter and the money is going in no matter what because it is a complete joke of a tournament


i disagree with the t force post on leading out.....if im playing £1/£2 im not happy only winning £68 against tptk if i flop a set.  

cod

In Response to Flopping a set in a raised pot:

Scenario: Everyone is deep-stacked. You're in the big blind with 66. The hand is raised from middle position, called by two late position players and you call from the Big Blind. The flop comes A96 rainbow. I notice that 99% of players who flop a set in this position go for a check-raise. Personally, I prefer to lead into the pre-flop raiser. Thoughts please.
Posted by BigBluster

on this site youve probably ran into pok aces so ur trip 6s will be blown away.just throw all ur chips in m8 n hope 4 the best.

Lilly-106

I'm with you on the huuume, Bounty Hunter tourneys are horrible. No real poker skill, got a decent enough hand - go all-in to get money. Not the way I think poker should be played.

On the hand mentioned in post number 1, I'd raise at least half the pot, someone must have a rag ace and feel lucky. If everyone folds to your raise, so be it, but the chances of anyone puting you on trip A is very unlikely. As many people on this site would be scared to raise with trip A (trust me, I've seen it more times than I've had hot dinners), other players must think your going for outside straight or trying to steal pot.