MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : nope. ma raise size is bestest!
Posted by beaneh

O no it's not!

IDONKCALLU

y raise and it comes a non ace or king flop and miss u lose what u have raise preflop just ship em in and pick up dead moniez

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

y raise and it comes a non ace or king flop and miss u lose what u have raise preflop just ship em in and pick up dead moniez
Posted by IDONKCALLU

look at what could happen. look at how shallow the stacks are, look how good our hand is and how weak our opponents look limping.

compare the possible actions when you raise to 475, 700, and all in. 

475> all imo.

davelufc

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : look at what could happen. look at how shallow the stacks are, look how good our hand is and how weak our opponents look limping. compare the possible actions when you raise to 475, 700, and all in.  475 /> all imo.
Posted by beaneh

I see what you mean now.. ainec = all in nice exit cards.

Fwiw, if your rolled for this level (£2.30 i presume dude? ) its gotta be all in imo.

Glenelg

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : I see what you mean now.. ainec = all in nice exit cards. Fwiw, if your rolled for this level (£2.30 i presume dude? ) its gotta be all in imo.
Posted by davelufc

Hi Dave,
Was wondering why should the level have a bearing on your decision? Really interested as I always assume people generally play the tourneys they are rolled for?  Surely you can't make a play in an MTT thinking "It's only £2:30, nevermind next tourney!"  ?

Glenelg

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : look at what could happen. look at how shallow the stacks are, look how good our hand is and how weak our opponents look limping. compare the possible actions when you raise to 475, 700, and all in.  475> all imo.
Posted by beaneh

Could you expand on what YOU think the possible actions (or more importantly the reactions)  would be in these situations?
Also, theres only one short stack!
 

DOHHHHHHH

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : Hi Dave, Was wondering why should the level have a bearing on your decision? Really interested as I always assume people generally play the tourneys they are rolled for?  Surely you can't make a play in an MTT thinking "It's only £2:30, nevermind next tourney!"  ?
Posted by Glenelg

My thinking would be....

"It's a £2.30 tourny, the players that are playing this tournament are likely to be beginners. The hands they're likely to have limped in with are pretty looking hands and they want to see a flop with them. If I shove in here they will have no idea how strong my range of hands is, they probably think I look weak, coz I'd never do with this or AA or KK would I, and they will call me with hands like 22/33/44/55/66/77/88/99/A9/AT/AJ/AQ/KQ/KJ/KTs and probably some other random stuff"

The buy in of the tournament is only relevent when assessing what the other players might be thinking. So a play that would be right here, might not be right in a bigger buy in tournament, not because we are taking 1 more or less seriously than the other, but because we know/assume the players in both tournaments will be thinking different things in this 1 situation and will react differently to the play we make. (which means our best play will often also be different)

Essayyyyyy !

We'll get called soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo light so often here. BH or no BH! 

rancid

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : look at what could happen. look at how shallow the stacks are, look how good our hand is and how weak our opponents look limping. compare the possible actions when you raise to 475, 700, and all in.  475 /> all imo.
Posted by beaneh

mmmm think raise to 475 just equals big pot multi way oop with AK, no one folds for that price in a BH at this kinda level -

raise to 750 probabaly equats to the same situation with maybe less callers

unless your thinking small stack shove, other oppo's call and you re pop it - then smaller raise size would work ok if the shortie does go all in -

shove is good for me though, a lot less thinking involved plus random bads will snap with K10s

davelufc

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : Hi Dave, Was wondering why should the level have a bearing on your decision? Really interested as I always assume people generally play the tourneys they are rolled for?  Surely you can't make a play in an MTT thinking "It's only £2:30, nevermind next tourney!"  ?
Posted by Glenelg

The level has no relevance to your decision as long as you have 50 buy ins at the level your playing.

I play a few BH`s and you can go for quite a while before you cash, never mind win!!

In op`s hand with 3 limpers i`m all in every time, no brainer.

If you cant afford to go out of the tourney with a premium hand then you shouldn`t play.

Just my opinion m8.

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : mmmm think raise to 475 just equals big pot multi way oop with AK, no one folds for that price in a BH at this kinda level - raise to 750 probabaly equats to the same situation with maybe less callers unless your thinking small stack shove, other oppo's call and you re pop it - then smaller raise size would work ok if the shortie does go all in - shove is good for me though, a lot less thinking involved plus random bads will snap with K10s
Posted by rancid

now you're getting it.

IF the 850 stack had 4k I would be advocating a larger raise size then 475.  as is, if they want to limp call then I dare them let's gogogo to the flop we has pair draw!

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : Could you expand on what YOU think the possible actions (or more importantly the reactions)  would be in these situations? Also, theres only one short stack!  
Posted by Glenelg

We could

FOLD - booooo hissss

CALL  - boooo nit

SHOVE - cant be bad we have AK win 675 w/o showdown, race, possibly get called by worse

RAISE 1k with 1/4 our stack in if someone calls we're not often folding, continuing by either doing bets or check shoving.

RAISE 475 -

R could call M could call B could call. about 1.75k in pot we have 3.6k back and AK....

R could call M could go all in B could fold and M could have to fold when we reshove (because we have raised small enough to allow him to re-raise all in)  leaving dead money or  just end up going allin with a weaker hand than he originally intended to

R could fold M could go allin B could fold and we play vs the shorty with 2bb dead money

R could fold M could fold B could fold and we win 675. 

with 3.5k back and 1.7k in pot we can

bet flop 1/2pot get 1 caller and be in a 3.2k pot with 2.4k back and so go all in alot. 

when we miss we often still have two overcards potentially with straight draws or FD's so we can go all in easily by whatever means creates the most fold equity. none of these situations are really that bad for us and all of them combined provide a better expected return than shoving. that is not to say that shoving is not a +ev play 

it is ofcourse also possible that we raise all just call. and we get in some weird spot where the shorty goes all in but we can easily fold due to the action combined with the board texture, and so save ourselves chips in those instances.

if our opponents are capable of limping in with too wide a range, then it is also concievable that they will continue to the next raise with too wide a range. this is not a bad thing considering how many hands we dominate that they are likely playing. yes it is annoying when someone calls with 93o and wins but that is part of poker you just have to play well deal with it and move on.

looking at it more broadly, preflop you should consider how your strategy should change relative to the playability of your hand strength. with 66 it becomes alot harder to do better than then expectation of just open shoving because of how poorly your hand plays postflop especially multiway. 

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : We could FOLD - booooo hissss CALL - boooo nit SHOVE - cant be bad we have AK win 675 w/o showdown, race, possibly get called by worse RAISE 1k with 1/4 our stack in if someone calls we're not often folding, continuing by either doing bets or check shoving. RAISE 475 - R could call M could call B could call. about 1.75k in pot we have 3.6k back and AK.... R could call M could go all in B could fold and M could have to fold when we reshove (because we have raised small enough to allow him to re-raise all in) leaving dead money or just end up going allin with a weaker hand than he originally intended to R could fold M could go allin B could fold and we play vs the shorty with 2bb dead money R could fold M could fold B could fold and we win 675. with 3.5k back and 1.7k in pot we can bet flop 1/2pot get 1 caller and be in a 3.2k pot with 2.4k back and so go all in alot. This only works when we hit our hand. If we see a flop three or four ways, we can never stack off without hitting our hand as our opponents will never call with worse than our Ace-high. when we miss we often still have two overcards potentially with straight draws or FD's so we can go all in easily by whatever means creates the most fold equity. Two overcards, three or four handed is not going to be a hand that has any value. If we miss, we're mostly going to be finished with the hand. With AKo, there aren't that many draws we can hit on a flop. Unless it's a monochrome flop the best we can hope for is a gut-shot, when we know that any action we face is going to come from a pair at least. none of these situations are really that bad for us and all of them combined provide a better expected return than shoving. that is not to say that shoving is not a +ev play it is ofcourse also possible that we raise all just call. and we get in some weird spot where the shorty goes all in but we can easily fold due to the action combined with the board texture, and so save ourselves chips in those instances. if our opponents are capable of limping in with too wide a range, then it is also concievable that they will continue to the next raise with too wide a range. this is not a bad thing considering how many hands we dominate that they are likely playing. yes it is annoying when someone calls with 93o and wins but that is part of poker you just have to play well deal with it and move on. looking at it more broadly, preflop you should consider how your strategy should change relative to the playability of your hand strength. with 66 it becomes alot harder to do better than then expectation of just open shoving because of how poorly your hand plays postflop especially multiway.
Posted by beaneh

I have to say, I think making the 475 raise is massively overplaying our hand. The premise is that one of our opponents may have limped intending to raise, which is not going to happen very often at this level. The other possibility that could make this beneficial is that we may get folds from a raise to 475 but people limping for 150 are unlikely to fold for 325 more, especially with the odds we're offering. The short-stack is the only player that might do one of these, but that will most likely be a fold that still leaves us seeing a flop three-handed out of position with an unmade hand. The big blind may even come along with the price being offered. We would essentially be hoping that we can get more in the middle pre-flop before getting our stack in, but still wanting to get it in without having to play the flop. I just think the 475 raise gets called by the limpers so much more often that it is 3-bet or folded to that it's just... well... bad.

If we don't get it in pre-flop with the AK I think we're wasting a premium hand and the chance to add 16% to our stack without a showdown or facing at worst a flip for a double-up. Going three-handed to the flop, out of position is just not something I want to be doing: I think that we're going to force our opponent's to make correct decisions. On any flop that doesn't have an Ace or King on it we'll only get action when we're behind and on a flop with an Ace or King we're not going to get someone with a lower pair to stack off. We might get someone to stack-off with a weaker Ace or King but this still relies on us hitting. I think playing this way with a made hand like AA, KK or QQ is fine but AK doesn't have the same value. C-betting into three or four players who've called our raise pre-flop, on a flop we've missed, from early position just can't be good, can it?

I know you have alot of good results, beaneh, but I can't agree with your ideas here... unless you can convince me.

beaneh

if you're worried about the raise size then make it bigger to put the ss in. open shoving 28 bb without antes is waaaay too much. the reason I like the 475 raise is the dead money options, we aren't deep enough for me to be worried about getting outplayed postflop.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

if you're worried about the raise size then make it bigger to put the ss in. open shoving 28 bb without antes is waaaay too much. the reason I like the 475 raise is the dead money options, we aren't deep enough for me to be worried about getting outplayed postflop.
Posted by beaneh

I'd prefer making it 1k than 475 here, but I still think it's better to shove. The question when you're making it 1k would be: What do I want to happen? If we don't believe that our opponents are limping to raise (which I wouldn't), then they're either going to fold to our 1k - in which case they'd also fold to our shove - or they're going to call. If they call I think we're in a bind, with 1/4 of our stack in the middle, seeing a flop out of position which we'll miss 2/3 times. We can lead at a flop that comes Queen high and hope that our opponent hasn't hit it or has an underpair that they're willing to fold but generally we're not liking any flop we miss. I think the only way I can make it 1k is if I'm determined to follow it up and fire at any flop that doesn't come 9TJ and I don't allow myself any second thoughts. That can definitely be a good play and is probably going to be profitable against a random limp-caller but I don't think it will be any more profitable than a pre-flop shove.

I'm not saying that we should generally be worried about being outplayed at this level but position is going to make this hand incredibly difficult to play post-flop. Getting value from our hand if we hit will be more difficult and leaving 1/4 of our stack behind when we miss is going to be just as hard. Getting out-flopped is going to bite too and I don't especially want to tilt myself by making a creative play and getting burned.

As for shoving 28BB, I'd rather look at it as what we can gain: We're shoving 28BB to pick up 4.5BB, which is 16%. It's not as though we're in an unopened pot, betting 28BB to claim the blinds. We could be called by worse or we could be called in a race. Overall, it's certainly a +ev play - as we both agree - and it's not nearly as murky a spot as making a smaller raise.

On the button I could certainly make a smaller raise but in the blinds I'd hate any action that didn't lead to all my chips going in pre-flop.

GREGHOGG

just want to say that this is a very interesting thread

my default move is to shove every time, (limpers + AK = shiiiiiiiiiiiiiip) but beane has put a new perspective on this and actually wants us to play flops and things lol even with relatively few bbs.

I, like others, detest playing oop but this, and bet sizing, is something that i clearly need to work on in general.

grantorino

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps : We could FOLD - booooo hissss CALL  - boooo nit SHOVE - cant be bad we have AK win 675 w/o showdown, race, possibly get called by worse RAISE 1k with 1/4 our stack in if someone calls we're not often folding, continuing by either doing bets or check shoving. RAISE 475 - R could call M could call B could call. about 1.75k in pot we have 3.6k back and AK.... R could call M could go all in B could fold and M could have to fold when we reshove (because we have raised small enough to allow him to re-raise all in)  leaving dead money or  just end up going allin with a weaker hand than he originally intended to R could fold M could go allin B could fold and we play vs the shorty with 2bb dead money R could fold M could fold B could fold and we win 675.  with 3.5k back and 1.7k in pot we can bet flop 1/2pot get 1 caller and be in a 3.2k pot with 2.4k back and so go all in alot.  when we miss we often still have two overcards potentially with straight draws or FD's so we can go all in easily by whatever means creates the most fold equity. none of these situations are really that bad for us and all of them combined provide a better expected return than shoving. that is not to say that shoving is not a +ev play  it is ofcourse also possible that we raise all just call. and we get in some weird spot where the shorty goes all in but we can easily fold due to the action combined with the board texture, and so save ourselves chips in those instances. if our opponents are capable of limping in with too wide a range, then it is also concievable that they will continue to the next raise with too wide a range. this is not a bad thing considering how many hands we dominate that they are likely playing. yes it is annoying when someone calls with 93o and wins but that is part of poker you just have to play well deal with it and move on. looking at it more broadly, preflop you should consider how your strategy should change relative to the playability of your hand strength. with 66 it becomes alot harder to do better than then expectation of just open shoving because of how poorly your hand plays postflop especially multiway. 
Posted by beaneh

Agree with all this

Even if everyone flats, and we c/f 2/3 of the time we miss its still going to be really profitable

We have AK not 89 here, we shouldnt be trying to make better hands fold. Early in the tournament we attempt to max our value.

Dudeskin8

Interesting stuff with Beaneh's idea but just as a side note in these games people don't like folding hands such as AQ/AJ/A10 even A9 and possibly KQ/KJ and even with a big shove they can still call pre flop especially if they have you covered and can take a bounty.

However once you get to the flop and they miss entirely they often check/fold so you're losing value vs those hands imo. 

If you raise like you say you really need both hands to connect to get it in which is always rare.

You can of course try a CRAI but that's often suicide in these comps.

rancid

Think the only plus with raising smallish is so short stack shove and then we can re pop it and hopefully one of the limpers comes along

Raising less to see a flop multi way against these stations may well be profitbale but if we assume by raising small everyone comes along then why don't we flat under rep hand and stack someone on a TPTK board when we have oppo dominated or we can just c/f flop we miss and get away cheaply

Don't feel comfortable at all trying to c/r flops we miss - as if any oppo has hit - they not folding
Plus we still looking at a lump of chips for a lead at the pot on 72J flop
Granted we kinda loving FD/SD flops plus overcards, but really If we take this line then we may aswel FLAT!

FLAT! come on - we cant' flat can we - would we flat 66 in this spot - ofcourse
AK does have improvers to a lot but raising oop only to inflate pot 2/3 for someone else does seem mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Final answer is - raise to 1100 or shove - cant' get to grips with raising small oop with AK going multi way to a flop versus random bad stations

Glenelg

Great thread!  Some very interesting points/views. This would fill a "chat box". I wonder what happened?  Not that it matters I suppose.

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

Great thread!  Some very interesting points/views. This would fill a "chat box". I wonder what happened?  Not that it matters I suppose.
Posted by Glenelg

what happened is utterly unrelated to how best play the hand.

if we knew it was going to come Axx or Kxx r 456 monotone that's not going to help us improve.

we have to allow for all the possible outcomes, both good and bad. results are meaningless.

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

Interesting stuff with Beaneh's idea but just as a side note in these games people don't like folding hands such as AQ/AJ/A10 even A9 and possibly KQ/KJ and even with a big shove they can still call pre flop especially if they have you covered and can take a bounty. However once you get to the flop and they miss entirely they often check/fold so you're losing value vs those hands imo.  If you raise like you say you really need both hands to connect to get it in which is always rare. You can of course try a CRAI but that's often suicide in these comps.
Posted by Dudeskin8

ya they call with anything 

so as I said, there is a whole range of hands that you ARE GOING TO WANT TO JAM because they don't play aswell as AK and don't have the potential to dominate people when they hit a pair.

So hands like ATs/AJo/77 etc.

Dudeskin8

I think the problem still is (at least for me) I could get it in pre them calling off with worse or raise and possibly fold the best hand postflop if I miss.

And on flop even if I hit they might not K-7-2 r flop them holding AJ e.g. but would get it in pre.

Also surely shoving that range you mention isn't as good as you'll be dominated a lot more when called/racing with medium pairs?

beaneh

In Response to Re: MTT - AK 28bbs facing lots of limps:

I think the problem still is (at least for me) I could get it in pre them calling off with worse or raise and possibly fold the best hand postflop if I miss. And on flop even if I hit they might not K-7-2 r flop them holding AJ e.g. but would get it in pre. Also surely shoving that range you mention isn't as good as you'll be dominated a lot more when called/racing with medium pairs?
Posted by Dudeskin8

if they are willing to limp call AJ/Kt etc then they will flop Kxx or Axx and we get chips. if they miss AJ we just pick up the pot on the flop. if they flop a set they will sometimes put up a large banner saying SETTAMENTS so we can fold and save chips. 

the less confident you are the more likely you should be to just jam. really not a fan of jamming 28 bigs without antes very much at all.