Mastercash 50p -£1

BorinLoner

I'm saying that, readless, most players do not 5-bet with less than a premium pair. I know alot of aggro players might, especially playing against another aggro player, but without reads there are far more players that will play it straight than there are players that will 5-bet light. So I'm not saying that good players are only willing to stack off pre-fop with AA or KK; I'm saying that they should only be willing to call off their stack to a 5-bet, pre-flop from an unknown player with AA or KK.

grantorino

people who can play pokah dont 4b/f any pretty hand btn v blind

As usual +1 to everything lolraise said

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1:

people who can play pokah dont 4b/f any pretty hand btn v blind As usual +1 to everything lolraise said
Posted by grantorino

Well, if we say that we're holding QQ, we're facing a 3-bet from an unknown and we believe that he's only ever 5-betting with AA or KK, I think "people who can play pokah" ought to be willing to 4-bet, fold. This is the only way 100BB deep that we can ever get away from QQ if our opponent is holding AA or KK. The alternative is to call and see a flop. Then what do we do on a low flop? We still stack-off to AA or KK. What do we do on an Ace-high or King-high flop? We probably fold without knowing if we were ever behind.

If we 4-bet we can't call a 5-bet if we think they only do it with AA or KK. Saying that you should never 4bet, fold is just foolish. It would leave you saying "I know I need 4/1 pot odds for this to be correct. I'm not getting 4/1 but I'm still going to call... because I made a 4-bet." That's demonstrably -EV thinking.

So we 4-bet and hope that he folds or calls. If he calls, we can reasonably think he doesn't have AA or KK but we should be happy to take the dead money. If he raises, a large majority of the time this means AA or KK so we need 4/1 to call.

LOL_RAISE

if we have QQ, get 3bet, and think that they will only 5bet KK,AA  then we shouldnt be 4betting

BorinLoner

Well, yes that's what I was getting at: Obviously we can't fold QQ to just any old 3-bet, so the alternative to the 4-bet is a call. That still leaves us probably stacking off to AA or KK if the board comes low but gains us value against lower pairs and perhaps AJ, AQ, AK type hands. The thing is, I don't think we always lose that value if we 4-bet. I think alot of players will call a 4-bet pre-flop with those hands. So that's a good reason to 4-bet. Of course they'll fold a fair amount of their 3-betting range, but I think the RIO of bringing those hands along by calling is probably enough to say we don't want those hands to see the flop - 22+ and suited connector-type hands - Anything more than a single c-bet from them is frequently going to mean we're in bad shape.

So I'm pretty much saying that the 4-bet is the best value play with QQ whether they have an overpair or not. We can get away when they have us beat, get value from alot of their range and take down the dead money the rest of the time, which will only cost us a small amount in potential value from a c-bet.

The main point of contention that I'm surprised nobody is disputing is that "a majority of unknown players are only 5-betting with AA or KK". Is there general agreement with this?

yb

the flaw in your logic imo is that you're assuming that the majority of players flat 4bets oop 100bbs deep at 100nl a decent amount of time, which just isn't the case.

and to answer your question i disagree that most players only get stacks in with AA,KK blind vs btn 100bbs deep

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1:

the flaw in your logic imo is that you're assuming that the majority of players flat 4bets oop 100bbs deep at 100nl a decent amount of time, which just isn't the case. and to answer your question i disagree that most players only get stacks in with AA,KK blind vs btn 100bbs deep
Posted by yb

It's the same point again, that I'm not talking about getting stacks in, I'm talking about 5-betting all-in. That's not the same as 3-betting all-in or 4-betting all-in. It suggests that they've seen the strength of a 4-bet and are still willing to get the lot in.

As for how many players are going to flat the 4-bet, I think it largely depends on the size of the 4-bet. If it's not too big I think people will set-mine or call with AK looking to hit. Might be wrong, but I don't think people will just fold these hands cheaply.

grantorino

In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1:

In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : Well, if we say that we're holding QQ, we're facing a 3-bet from an unknown and we believe that he's only ever 5-betting with AA or KK, I think "people who can play pokah" ought to be willing to 4-bet, fold. This is the only way 100BB deep that we can ever get away from QQ if our opponent is holding AA or KK. The alternative is to call and see a flop. Then what do we do on a low flop? We still stack-off to AA or KK. What do we do on an Ace-high or King-high flop? We probably fold without knowing if we were ever behind. If we 4-bet we can't call a 5-bet if we think they only do it with AA or KK. Saying that you should never 4bet, fold is just foolish. It would leave you saying "I know I need 4/1 pot odds for this to be correct. I'm not getting 4/1 but I'm still going to call... because I made a 4-bet." That's demonstrably -EV thinking. So we 4-bet and hope that he folds or calls. If he calls, we can reasonably think he doesn't have AA or KK but we should be happy to take the dead money. If he raises, a large majority of the time this means AA or KK so we need 4/1 to call.
Posted by BorinLoner

4b/f is lolbad with QQ readless imo. How do you make out people only 5bet shove KK+? People dont flat 4bets at 100NL type levels much, so we cant 4b/f QQ. If yo know they do only 5bet shove KK+ then dont 4b/f QQ flat it and play poker. If they 5b wider either 4b/c or flat the 3bet.

If you are playing someone who is bad enough to flat 4bets with AJ etc and bad enough that their 5b range is KK+ you can take your line. Its not a good assumption to  make though imo at 100NL.

yb

In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1:

In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : It's the same point again, that I'm not talking about getting stacks in, I'm talking about 5-betting all-in. That's not the same as 3-betting all-in or 4-betting all-in. It suggests that they've seen the strength of a 4-bet and are still willing to get the lot in. As for how many players are going to flat the 4-bet, I think it largely depends on the size of the 4-bet. If it's not too big I think people will set-mine or call with AK looking to hit. Might be wrong, but I don't think people will just fold these hands cheaply.
Posted by BorinLoner

getting stacks in preflop 100bbs deep will more often be achieved by 5bet shoving than by 3bet/4bet shoving so i don't get your point really.

it's a lot more likely for people to 5bet shove with AK than for them to call a 4bet oop with it.

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1:

In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1 : getting stacks in preflop 100bbs deep will more often be achieved by 5bet shoving than by 3bet/4bet shoving so i don't get your point really. it's a lot more likely for people to 5bet shove with AK than for them to call a 4bet oop with it.
Posted by yb

Well there you go then, this is the "flaw in my logic" as you put it, if you're right. I don't think I'm going to be convinced that an "average" nl100 player is 5-betting lighter than KK but maybe I'm wrong. Obviously a fair few players are capable of that but I think until I have history with a player and I've seen them do this sort of thing repeatedly, I'd be giving them credit for having that tight 5-betting range. I just think that's how a majority of players play.

beaneh

loner your advice can be very good. stop assuming that each level has a specific skill set required.

i've played tougher regs at nl50 than I have at NL500. it's all about bankroll and how stupidly overconfident people are. 

it's not like oh ive gone from NL50 to NL100 my stacking off range is now QQ+ instead of KK+....against some experts you need to stack off 88 lolo. it's all player dependent.

fwiw OP answer me this, how often do you put 30bb out of a 80/90 bb stack in the middle? have you ever done it without aces? if I was your oppo I would fold kings to this play and snap call if you jammed....

BorinLoner

In Response to Re: Mastercash 50p -£1:

loner your advice can be very good. stop assuming that each level has a specific skill set required. i've played tougher regs at nl50 than I have at NL500. it's all about bankroll and how stupidly overconfident people are.  it's not like oh ive gone from NL50 to NL100 my stacking off range is now QQ+ instead of KK+....against some experts you need to stack off 88 lolo. it's all *player dependent. fwiw OP answer me this, how often do you put 30bb out of a 80/90 bb stack in the middle? have you ever done it without aces? if I was your oppo I would fold kings to this play and snap call if you jammed....
Posted by beaneh

I don't assume that each level has it's own skill set. I'd offer the same advice to anyone playing above micro stakes.

*Pretty much said this myself.

As I've said, this is how I'd play it. I might be wrong but I don't like stacking off with QQ or worse against unknowns making 5-bets. Maybe too tight, probably is given the level of opposition I'm facing here. lol