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NL10 - should I call here

edited April 2012 in The Poker Clinic
#504690915

oppo is very capable
Should I call and can I call
What about pre and flop lines

What's oppo range here


PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
Wengene Small blind   £0.05 £0.05 £10.33
choc99 Big blind   £0.10 £0.15 £12.09
  Your hole cards
  • J
  • 10
     
Robbo67 Fold        
fowler0775 Call   £0.10 £0.25 £5.61
Batkin88 Raise   £0.35 £0.60 £9.65
rancid Raise   £1.10 £1.70 £10.05
Wengene Fold        
choc99 Call   £1.00 £2.70 £11.09
fowler0775 Fold        
Batkin88 Call   £0.75 £3.45 £8.90
Flop
   
  • 8
  • 9
  • 3
     
choc99 Check        
Batkin88 Check        
rancid Bet   £2.59 £6.04 £7.46
choc99 Fold        
Batkin88 All-in   £8.90 £14.94 £0.00
rancid ?
       
      
      

      

      
      

Comments

  • edited April 2012
    No! don't think your getting the right price tbh, unless he shows up with AA, or low flush then you are ;), i mean if he shows up with high flush, set, or qq, we only have around 25% chance to win the hand; not good, and i would think that's a large part of his shoving range there.

    Sorry but i don't like how you played this hand at all, pre i think a call on the button is better than 3-betting the iso since the limper will surely call(fold is best play imo), as played flop is ok for you, since you were bluffing before and now have picked up some equity 3-way its prob best to slow down if your gonna c-bet make it a littler smaller imo, if the board was rainbow, then you can be more aggressive, so yea fold for me here m8, calling is not the worst play though.
  • edited April 2012
    As played, this is quite close but I think probably a fold, just. We're calling another £6.31 to win £21.25, minus 7.5% of the pot up to £1.40 in rake.

    Rake is £1.40 so we're calling £6.31 to win £19.85. Therefore we need 6.31/19.85 = 31.79% equity vs. Batkin's range to make this a profitable call over time. Whether you call or not here depends on what you think Batkin's range is and how much equity you have against that range. I probably gamble here, but I think whether or not you should be calling is a question for Pokerstove to answer.

    Needing to win 31.79% of the time, hitting a straight is 2:1 (ish), so just over 33% - But we need to subtract a bit from that for the times we're against QQ and the opponent has 2 of our outs and the 2 Q's give our opponent a house redraw, the times we're against diamonds and 2 of our outs are no good and the opponent has diamond redraws even if we hit, the times we're against a set of 8's or 9's and our opponent has house redraws, and i think it just about becomes a fold as a result of that.

    Pre-flop, I think peeling on the button is a million times better than 3-betting. JTo is a hand that plays really well vs. multiple opponents, and by 3-betting, you can take down the pot sometimes but most of the time, you're going to fold out one opponent and lose some of the value that JT has as a hand that plays well vs. multiple opponents - I'd rather be doing this with 72o.
  • edited April 2012
    Guy's probably got the over pair, therefore youre basically looking for the draw, think you've put in £4 and looks like 6 to call. Sums might be out, it's late. 
    probably a fold but i would probably call as i like to see what they have too much (that's where all my money is going, knew i was doing something wrong lol :)
  • edited April 2012
    checking back flop an option imo

    I'd call it off if I bet, you will usually have around 10 outs

    3bet pre ok imo, JTo not going to have that much value multiway w/o initiative.
  • edited April 2012
    I dont like 3 betting pre in this spot, at this level J10 isnt really a value hand and your just get in a tricky spots post flop like this uhless u hit a dream flop

    Your getting the price to call IMO as long as they dont have ur outs, 30%

    Problem is Batters probably does have 10s-AA, AK/AQsuited at worst. Call n reload
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    JTo not going to have that much value multiway w/o initiative.
    Posted by grantorino
    if limper is a fish, then flatting pre is best theres is loads of value there when we hit our hand, 3-betting is the worst option tbh
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here : if limper is a fish, then flatting pre is best theres is loads of value there when we hit our hand, 3-betting is the worst option tbh
    Posted by WHOAMI196

    Don't get this comment and most others regarding peeling J10 here.
    I am obviously not 3 betting J10 for value, I could have any hand as I am 3 betting versus a capable iso raise versus the limper

    if I am iso 3 betting than surely it's better with a hand that flops well rarther than 84o as when called by fish or capable then I win more moniez having two options rather than just
    hitting flop by peeling. Granted we could just play postion by peeling and check,check - c bet win moniez but mmmmmm

    If we are 3 betting J10 here then surely there's more value by either hitting flop or not or not even seing a flop


    Am I mad or just stone cold crazy here

    O I'll post result once we have a good old debate )


    @ GT - If I have a 3 bet value hand here - I am never checking back flop am I



  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here : Don't get this comment and most others regarding peeling J10 here. I am obviously not 3 betting J10 for value, I could have any hand as I am 3 betting versus a capable iso raise versus the limper if I am iso 3 betting than surely it's better with a hand that flops well rarther than 84o as when called by fish or capable then I win more moniez having two options rather than just hitting flop by peeling. Granted we could just play postion by peeling and check,check - c bet win moniez but mmmmmm If we are 3 betting J10 here then surely there's more value by either hitting flop or not or not even seing a flop Am I mad or just stone cold crazy here O I'll post result once we have a good old debate ) @ GT - If I have a 3 bet value hand here - I am never checking back flop am I
    Posted by rancid

    I think you are over-thinking situations tbh, and overplaying situations, 3-bet bluffing a hand like J10o on NL10 is asking for trouble as it has reverse implied odds when you get called and bluffing at these levels is a no go imo, calling in this situation is by far better than three betting because j10 has better implied odds in multi way pots, esp with fish in the hand that could pay you off when you hit big.

    I would not get in the way of regs isolating the weaker players, even if there is value in stealing, you are just inflating the pot when really you should not be in it, ok ur play is not the worst in the world but just play solid imo, cant go wrong then.

    In this spot doing it with 84 would be better, purely because its easy to fold when its obvious a plan has failed.

  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here : I think you are over-thinking situations tbh, and overplaying situations, 3-bet bluffing a hand like J10o on NL10 is asking for trouble as it has reverse implied odds when you get called and bluffing at these levels is a no go imo, calling in this situation is by far better than three betting because j10 has better implied odds in multi way pots, esp with fish in the hand that could pay you off when you hit big. I would not get in the way of regs isolating the weaker players, even if there is value in stealing, you are just inflating the pot when really you should not be in it, ok ur play is not the worst in the world but just play solid imo, cant go wrong then. In this spot doing it with 84 would be better, purely because its easy to fold when its obvious a plan has failed.
    Posted by WHOAMI196
    Bahhhh Humbug!

    Solid is boring versus Regs ) I cooler you and you cooler me - pssssssssssssssssssssssh to that )
    How are we supposed to win any money versus Regs by playing solid, surely we look for spots like this to exploit.

    Maybe it's just a level !





  • edited April 2012
    @ Rancid - Has NL10 got that tough you have to start beating REGs to make money?
  • edited April 2012
    I think you can go with any of the 3 options pre. Calling is going to be pretty marginal imo we dont play that well against either limper or batkins isolating range imo and bluffing postflop will probably be tricky 3 way. 3betting obv depends how many folds we get either pre or to our cbet on the flop, if its profitable though its prob as good as calling pre imo, JTo isnt really a strong enough hand that Im going to worry about turning it into a bluff

    As for cbetting flop, well I wouldnt check TT or better unless I wasnt happy getting it in, but thats because we get called a ton on this board. I wouldnt always cbet AK etc here. I think you can cbet , but its not a great board to bluff and we can rep or improve on a lot of turn cards so I wouldnt always cbet
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    @ Rancid - Has NL10 got that tough you have to start beating REGs to make money?
    Posted by Dudeskin8

    NL10 is full of regs, you sit down with the same people day after day, all grinding 4-6 tables. I could list 20-30 right now. People assume it's going to be a cake walk but it's actually pretty tough considering the amount of money being played for
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here : Bahhhh Humbug! Solid is boring versus Regs ) I cooler you and you cooler me - pssssssssssssssssssssssh to that ) How are we supposed to win any money versus Regs by playing solid, surely we look for spots like this to exploit. Maybe it's just a level !
    Posted by rancid
    haha fair enough

    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here : NL10 is full of regs, you sit down with the same people day after day, all grinding 4-6 tables. I could list 20-30 right now. People assume it's going to be a cake walk but it's actually pretty tough considering the amount of money being played for
    Posted by salazar
    Man, im tempted to wack £100 in my acc, and play this level (to which i have beaten in the past, on sky btw) to prove that it is not v hard, but i don't get much time to play at the levels i regularly play at, but i do have a long weekend off......tempted
  • edited April 2012
    I could probably get the 3 hottest girls into bed in the same night if i could get them all in same place, I don't go out much though. Wow tempted to go out one night to where they're all hanging out, then again I like going to the pub full of blokes watching the football (roll eyes)

    Lets see your fantasic skills do the talking, no one wants to hear what you could do if you had the time
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    I could probably get the 3 hottest girls into bed in the same night if i could get them all in same place, I don't go out much though. Wow tempted to go out one night to where they're all hanging out, then again I like going to the pub full blokes watching the football (roll eyes) Lets see your fantasic skills do the talking, no one wants to hear what you could do if you had the time
    Posted by salazar
    I think i have to put my money where my mouth is dont i lol ok......ses GPC in a bit 
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    @ Rancid - Has NL10 got that tough you have to start beating REGs to make money?
    Posted by Dudeskin8
    lol hardly - but if we can beat Regs and the value then we crush - YES ! )

    I mean seriously, I don't need to be told it's easier to get money from value than from REGS - )

    The limp/call dead money is mine, so just get off my table !
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here : I think i have to put my money where my mouth is dont i lol ok......ses GPC in a bit 
    Posted by WHOAMI196

    OMG what have I done, started a revolution or something )
  • edited April 2012
    +1 nl10 is easy even a fish like me @ cash can beat it, dont over think it! 
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here : lol hardly - but if we can beat Regs and the value then we crush - YES ! ) I mean seriously, I don't need to be told it's easier to get money from value than from REGS - ) The limp/call dead money is mine, so just get off my table !
    Posted by rancid
    Yeah naturally, but I'd reckon there's more value from the fish than REG's. Of course if you know the REG inside out then you can probably get similar from both but honestly why bother when others can hand it to you on a plate lol
  • edited April 2012
    Result, even though it doesn't matter

    Agree obviously - play solid, play value
    Sometimes we gotta play the player versus REG's otherwise it's just a bit tedious @NL10

    But anyway J high is always good here but nh Battykins gg
    PlayerActionCardsAmountPotBalance
    Wengene Small blind   £0.05 £0.05 £10.33
    choc99 Big blind   £0.10 £0.15 £12.09
      Your hole cards
    • J
    • 10
         
    Robbo67 Fold        
    fowler0775 Call   £0.10 £0.25 £5.61
    Batkin88 Raise   £0.35 £0.60 £9.65
    rancid Raise   £1.10 £1.70 £10.05
    Wengene Fold        
    choc99 Call   £1.00 £2.70 £11.09
    fowler0775 Fold        
    Batkin88 Call   £0.75 £3.45 £8.90
    Flop
       
    • 8
    • 9
    • 3
         
    choc99 Check        
    Batkin88 Check        
    rancid Bet   £2.59 £6.04 £7.46
    choc99 Fold        
    Batkin88 All-in   £8.90 £14.94 £0.00
    rancid Call   £6.31 £21.25 £1.15
    Batkin88 Show
    • 7
    • J
         
    rancid Show
    • J
    • 10
         
    Turn
       
    • A
         
    River
       
    • 4
         
    Batkin88 Win Flush to the Jack £19.85   £19.85
  • edited April 2012
    If ya wanna dance at least do it on the telly box so it gets max viewing ;_)
  • edited April 2012
    lol dont 3bet bluff fishes

    nice flat oop with J7s, he obv respects ur game
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    lol dont 3bet bluff fishes nice flat oop with J7s, she obv respects ur game
    Posted by grantorino
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    lol dont 3bet bluff fishes nice flat oop with J7s, he obv respects ur game
    Posted by grantorino
    yeah, pretty much nailed it.

    would prob peel a flop on the button if u know batkin isos limpers pretty wide.
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    lol dont 3bet bluff fishes nice flat oop with J7s, he obv respects ur game
    Posted by grantorino

    lol


    next stop, value town - all aboard !
  • edited April 2012
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here:
    In Response to Re: NL10 - should I call here : yeah, pretty much nailed it. would prob peel a flop on the button if u know batkin isos limpers pretty wide.
    Posted by NColley
    Ok, but if oppo iso limpers wide then how is flatting btn good
    oppo going to c-bet if limper checks so therefore we either raise flop or hit and call )

    how about we 3 bet it pre and take down pot or oop oppo's call our 3 bet and we take down on flop or smash the flop
    Not like I am playing my cards here is it, unless I get called and smash the flop

    It's a given that we taking the same line with 3 bet value hands so - all round it's a pay day surely )



  • edited April 2012
    Looks like 2 1/2 to one to me?  (£6.3/15) Always find this format hard to untangle.

    I'd prob give self about 40% equity and happily call, stacks being what they are and given that we have taken this line - which I like btw.

    NH

    Just read through a few posts in here.  Have never wanted to play like a robot, prob why I dont grind out a profit in cash online.  Firm believer that you have to give action to get it tho.  Mark it down to getting vl in the future :p
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