Line check at NL4

Wilhelm

I have no notes on this player and the only thing I've noticed this session is this hand which occurred two hands previous to the one in question: 

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
wonf	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£2.57
Marnie	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£1.82
	Your hole cards	6 2
milldrew	Fold
Wilhelm	Fold
Ryzing65	Fold
XXX	Raise		£0.08	£0.14	£4.89
wonf	Fold
Marnie	Call		£0.04	£0.18	£1.78
Flop
		J K K
Marnie	Check
XXX	Check
Turn
		J
Marnie	Check
XXX	Check
River
		7
Marnie	Check
XXX	All-in		£4.89	£5.07	£0.00
Marnie	Fold
XXX	Muck
XXX	Win		£0.16		£0.16
XXX	Return		£4.89	£0.02	£5.05

How's my line here? 

Hand History #509924226 (20:56 23/04/2012)

Player	Action	Cards	Amount	Pot	Balance
milldrew	Small blind		£0.02	£0.02	£2.88
Wilhelm	Big blind		£0.04	£0.06	£4.05
	Your hole cards	Q J
Ryzing65	Fold
XXX	Call		£0.04	£0.10	£4.97
wonf	Fold
Marnie	Fold
milldrew	Raise		£0.06	£0.16	£2.82
Wilhelm	Call		£0.04	£0.20	£4.01
XXX	Call		£0.04	£0.24	£4.93
Flop
		9 J 3
milldrew	Bet		£0.04	£0.28	£2.78
Wilhelm	Raise		£0.20	£0.48	£3.81
XXX	Call		£0.20	£0.68	£4.73
milldrew	Fold
Turn
		7
Wilhelm	Bet		£0.42	£1.10	£3.39
XXX	All-in		£4.73	£5.83	£0.00
Wilhelm	Fold
XXX	Muck
XXX	Win		£1.40		£1.40
XXX	Return		£4.31	£0.12	£5.71

Dudeskin8

Suited I might call but offsuit just fold pre so much reverse implied odds. 

Flop just call bet.

Turn as played fold is fine but you've overplayed your hand imo. 

Wilhelm

In Response to Re: Line check at NL4:

Suited I might call but offsuit just fold pre so much reverse implied odds.  Flop just call bet. Turn as played fold is fine but you've overplayed your hand imo. 
Posted by Dudeskin8

I hope you don't mind me asking Dude, but what is the worst you would call with here?  Does the raise size matter?  What if the button limps, would you call then?  Would you rasie with this hand from the button?  Would you still fold the turn if you were holding KJ?  AJ? 

I only ask because I'm starting to think that my fundamentals are all wrong...

Dudeskin8

It of course depends but in general you want to be playing tight at NL4 so when you do call raises pre, even min ones, it needs to be hands that flop really well like small pairs or possibly suited connectors. 

On the suited connectors though you have to be careful as all the value in your hand will be from the draw as trying to bluff people off ANY sort of made hand will be tough. 

If you do flop TP like this hand you have to realise that that was not the intention of calling pre so facing bets it best to use pot control and just call down as when raising it's hard to get called by worse especially on dry boards. 

If Btn limps it becomes more favourable to call as pot odds improve but again OOP with weakish hand you have to be careful and understand what flops you want to hit straight draws/2pair/trips etc If it was suited flush draws as well.

Raising from the Btn would be fine and the ideal scenario, IP, possibly get it HU and have c-bet to use rather than hoping to hit and overall a much more profitable spot than from the BB. 

With KJ/AJ it's tricker and folding would be tough at NL4 espech AJ but that over shove does look very strong so would most likely be a sigh fold unless you had notes he can over value wekaer Jx's or has ability to bluff.

The_Don90

In Response to Re: Line check at NL4:

It of course depends but in general you want to be playing tight at NL4 so when you do call raises pre, even min ones, it needs to be hands that flop really well like small pairs or possibly suited connectors.  On the suited connectors though you have to be careful as all the value in your hand will be from the draw as trying to bluff people off ANY sort of made hand will be tough.  If you do flop TP like this hand you have to realise that that was not the intention of calling pre so facing bets it best to use pot control and just call down as when raising it's hard to get called by worse especially on dry boards.  If Btn limps it becomes more favourable to call as pot odds improve but again OOP with weakish hand you have to be careful and understand what flops you want to hit straight draws/2pair/trips etc If it was suited flush draws as well. Raising from the Btn would be fine and the ideal scenario, IP, possibly get it HU and have c-bet to use rather than hoping to hit and overall a much more profitable spot than from the BB.  With KJ/AJ it's tricker and folding would be tough at NL4 espech AJ but that over shove does look very strong so would most likely be a sigh fold unless you had notes he can over value wekaer Jx's or has ability to bluff.
Posted by Dudeskin8

Can i just say probably one of the best posts ever regards NL4. The amount of times ive posted up and hand to a reply stating "you cant fold its NL4" when all my gut instinct says to fold. As a result i feel on many an occassion ive made a wrong desision at a later date. People seem to be comming to terms with folding big hands at NL4 more and more.

Ive gone off topic anyways. great post.

Dudeskin8

To be honest I probably fold way too often full stop lol but yeah there are times, even at the dreaded NL4, where the fold button has to be pressed in marginal spots and gut should be trusted. 

Good to see one of my posts is of some use though, and best of luck in trying to tackle NL4 again or whatever format you try . 

Spikelad

I wouldnt beat myself up about this fold Wilhelm he is showing a lot of strength with his turn bet,fold and move on to the next hand.

liamboi11

think you played the hand fine overall  fold turn wait 4 better spot imo buddy