could i of done anything different or just standard?

IDONKCALLU

inlikeflynSmall blind 15.0015.001475.00phillips46Big blind 30.0045.002015.00 Your hole cardsK10   james1934Fold    azukiraFold    IDONKCALLURaise 90.00135.001825.00inlikeflynFold    phillips46Raise 180.00315.001835.00IDONKCALLUCall 120.00435.001705.00Flop  10K2   phillips46Bet 217.50652.501617.50IDONKCALLUCall 217.50870.001487.50Turn  8   phillips46Check    IDONKCALLUBet 240.001110.001247.50phillips46Raise 480.001590.001137.50IDONKCALLUAll-in 1247.502837.500.00phillips46All-in 1137.503975.000.00phillips46Unmatched bet 130.003845.00130.00phillips46Show88   IDONKCALLUShowK10   River  2   phillips46WinFull House, 8s and 2s3845.00 3975.00

KAM99

No, nothing you can do in this spot I don't think. Bad luck, move on. Only thing you were losing to at the point the money went in was a set, and you had the flush draw if you were unlucky enough to be up against one. Can't put someone on a set every time they raise on the turn, so jamming it with your redraw was fine. Sure his C/R min was funky and often a sign of strength, but still don't think I'd change the play.

Only thing I'd maybe change would be the bet sizing you made on the turn. Not sure why you'd go quite that small with a good hand, as you want paying off if he does have a hand.

grantorino

fold to 3bet pre readless

either bet turn bigger or check back, never folding postflop though

DOHHHHHHH

I bet turn a teeeeeny bit bigger, but like the size.

Flat his raise, call or shove any river. 

IDONKCALLU

i bet turn to induce the raise i am never folding pre as in poistion and opponent only minraised and on flop i thought about check raising and should of now as would of won pot there n then but i wanted opponent to bluff of hes stack so just called on flop hey ho 

KAM99

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard?:

fold to 3bet pre readless either bet turn bigger or check back, never folding postflop though
Posted by grantorino

yuck.. Why would you fold to a min reraise with position? Can't see checking the turn either, as only thing beating you is a set at the turn. You couldn't see much better board for top two pair than this and so if never folding you want to extract value, and checking back won't do that.

To be honest the only person that played this hand pretty poorly was the guy with the 88. Reraise pre at that blind level was fairly senseless and even as played not big enough to make anyone muck anything other than garbage, and its not likely CO would have garbage at this early a blind level. Once his 3 bet is called the flop comes down that will be all over a raisers range. Should maybe have given up there, but can forgive a Cbet, but when called and he makes his hand he checks. Great if you're sure the player in postion will fire, but not wise to do in general as you have your big hand and you want to get paid; keep betting.

grantorino

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard?:

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard? : yuck.. Why would you fold to a min reraise with position? Can't see checking the turn either, as only thing beating you is a set at the turn. You couldn't see much better board for top two pair than this and so if never folding you want to extract value, and checking back won't do that. To be honest the only person that played this hand pretty poorly was the guy with the 88. Reraise pre at that blind level was fairly senseless and even as played not big enough to make anyone muck anything other than garbage, and its not likely CO would have garbage at this early a blind level. Once his 3 bet is called the flop comes down that will be all over a raisers range. Should maybe have given up there, but can forgive a Cbet, but when called and he makes his hand he checks. Great if you're sure the player in postion will fire, but not wise to do in general as you have your big hand and you want to get paid; keep betting.
Posted by KAM99

well seeing as my post is yuck , show me how calling his 3bet pre will be profitable. Reasons I think it mightnt be include:
we miss flop a lot
we make 2nd best hand on good flops for us a lot
we are readless
the spr is~4/1 when we call pre which doesnt leave much room  for manouver postflop

Yes we have best hand usually on turn that doesnt mean we should always bet. I prob bet here, but I prefer checking to betting 1/4 pot. What range has villain when he checks turn? How much of this range calls 2 streets?  What part that calls 2 streets can we not get it in on river against anyway? Also checking turn allows him bluff river

KAM99

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard?:

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard? : well seeing as my post is yuck , show me how calling his 3bet pre will be profitable. Reasons I think it mightnt be include: we miss flop a lot we make 2nd best hand on good flops for us a lot we are readless the spr is~4/1 when we call pre which doesnt leave much room  for manouver postflop Yes we have best hand usually on turn that doesnt mean we should always bet. I prob bet here, but I prefer checking to betting 1/4 pot. What range has villain when he checks turn? How much of this range calls 2 streets?  What part that calls 2 streets can we not get it in on river against anyway? Also checking turn allows him bluff river
Posted by grantorino

Sorry if my "yuck" came over insulting, wasn't meant to be. I just meant that with him min raising you like that you getting about 3:1 pot odds to make the call, and this is good value odds for the range of hands he may have. Yes, K10 is a marginal hand and technically doesn't always stand up well against a raisers range, but in this case with the pot odds its not a bad call with postion. If we always play poker to hit the flop we are playing the wrong game. We will only pair a flop about 1 in 3 times, which means villians will too. With postion good chance we can taket he pot off them. Thats the reasoning behind why i don't like pretty much ever laying down to a min raise unless I've got a read on someone doing that with crazy strength often.

As for ranges. Well when he checks turn he could have any number of hands when up against someone that min raises preflop OOP. Anything from any medium PP up, maybe anything over KJ etc. As for the turn. I guess thats choice. I don't like checking behind generally because firstly I don't like giving free cards when I have a made hand because there are plenty of cards that might hit river that might make me more nervous about my two pair against his range. Secondly, there are going to be more cards he won't like too, and may mean he would only check call the river with a hand like AK or AA etc. Certainly if he bets and you reraise the river unless he has a strong hand he is never likely calling a reraise there. So I'd rather give him the option to call with a weaker hand, as I'm never folding this hand on this turn board. I also don't mind hero's line sometimes to try and get a C/R from villian though in most cases I'd likely make it half pot or just over.

Anyway, I guess all in all poker is a game of opinions and we don't all play the game the same way. I guess it would be fairly boring if we did. And sorry if you found my "yuck" insulting. Was just my peronal opinion on folding to often to a min raise preflop in postion.

Batkin88

fold pre as played bet bigger turn with intention of getting it in

oynutter

He has'nt thought about his flop bet, its just a feeler bet, I would have put in  my chips on the flop thinking he has nothing or a drawing hand-- with 652 chips in the pot you want him off the hand now!

EvilPingu

I hate calling a 3-bet with KT, don't care if we're in position. Much prefer a 4-bet or a fold, almost certainly a fold this early in a tournament, with probably no reads on the villain. Reason being that KT is so likely to be dominated by a typical 3-betting range. This is the best case scenario for you - a pocket pair which you're racing against. Even then, you're still behind.

Either 4-bet, and get him to fold hands which beat you (KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ, 88-TT/JJ are all in his 3-bet range and are then faced with a tough decision for their entire stack), or just give up. Calling isn't a compromise between folding and raising. It's the worst option of the three. 

Fold to 3-bet > Open fold without putting a chip in the pot > 4-bet > Call.

Might sound nitty, but there's a case for not even raising in the first place. If you get 2 folds, you win 45 chips... If you get any resistance, you're probably going to get yourself into trouble with a hand like KT. Can see here that we're against 88 and our opponent has got lucky, but I think most of the time, you're going to be massively behind to a big pair, or get yourself into trouble when you hit a pair and find that you're outkicked.

percival09

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard?:

I hate calling a 3-bet with KT, don't care if we're in position. Much prefer a 4-bet or a fold, almost certainly a fold this early in a tournament, with probably no reads on the villain. Reason being that KT is so likely to be dominated by a typical 3-betting range. This is the best case scenario for you - a pocket pair which you're racing against. Even then, you're still behind. Either 4-bet, and get him to fold hands which beat you (KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ, 88-TT/JJ are all in his 3-bet range and are then faced with a tough decision for their entire stack), or just give up. Calling isn't a compromise between folding and raising. It's the worst option of the three.  Fold to 3-bet > Open fold without putting a chip in the pot > 4-bet > Call. Might sound nitty, but there's a case for not even raising in the first place. If you get 2 folds, you win 45 chips... If you get any resistance, you're probably going to get yourself into trouble with a hand like KT. Can see here that we're against 88 and our opponent has got lucky, but I think most of the time, you're going to be massively behind to a big pair, or get yourself into trouble when you hit a pair and find that you're outkicked.
Posted by EvilPingu

how do you know what villains range is here? and how would you know he's folding to 4b? If he 3bets 88 here he might be looking to get it in. readless you'd hardly ever expect villain to be 3betting with 88, or with hands like KJ,KQ etc.. this gives hero more reason to fold to the 3b, even 4betting would be bad imo

EvilPingu

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard?:

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard? : how do you know what villains range is here? and how would you know he's folding to 4b? If he 3bets 88 here he might be looking to get it in. readless you'd hardly ever expect villain to be 3betting with 88, or with hands like KJ,KQ etc.. this gives hero more reason to fold to the 3b, even 4betting would be bad imo
Posted by percival09

I don't "know" the villains' range, I've never played him. But there are hands which people will 3bet because we're raising from the button and they think we have nothing, then fold to a 4bet with.

Also, I never said 4betting was good or bad, all I said is I'd rather see a 4bet than a call. Calling is horrendous here.

rancid

fold or 4 bet

prefer to know oppo 3 betting range before we 4 bet, 4 betting readless is a crime against the poker gods )

still think you can flat here with a view of taking it away ip

grantorino

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard?:

In Response to Re: could i of done anything different or just standard? : Sorry if my "yuck" came over insulting, wasn't meant to be. I just meant that with him min raising you like that you getting about 3:1 pot odds to make the call, and this is good value odds for the range of hands he may have. Yes, K10 is a marginal hand and technically doesn't always stand up well against a raisers range, but in this case with the pot odds its not a bad call with postion. If we always play poker to hit the flop we are playing the wrong game. We will only pair a flop about 1 in 3 times, which means villians will too. With postion good chance we can taket he pot off them. Thats the reasoning behind why i don't like pretty much ever laying down to a min raise unless I've got a read on someone doing that with crazy strength often. As for ranges. Well when he checks turn he could have any number of hands when up against someone that min raises preflop OOP. Anything from any medium PP up, maybe anything over KJ etc. As for the turn. I guess thats choice. I don't like checking behind generally because firstly I don't like giving free cards when I have a made hand because there are plenty of cards that might hit river that might make me more nervous about my two pair against his range. Secondly, there are going to be more cards he won't like too, and may mean he would only check call the river with a hand like AK or AA etc. Certainly if he bets and you reraise the river unless he has a strong hand he is never likely calling a reraise there. So I'd rather give him the option to call with a weaker hand, as I'm never folding this hand on this turn board. I also don't mind hero's line sometimes to try and get a C/R from villian though in most cases I'd likely make it half pot or just over. Anyway, I guess all in all poker is a game of opinions and we don't all play the game the same way. I guess it would be fairly boring if we did. And sorry if you found my "yuck" insulting. Was just my peronal opinion on folding to often to a min raise preflop in postion.
Posted by KAM99

Our direct pot odds arent that important pre when there is money behind. I agree that we shouldnt usually be flatting just to hit (sometimes we can though), but the problem here is we dont know much about villain and the stack to pot ratio is pretty low. We dont know his range (usually pretty strong imo), we dont know his postflop tendencies.

If he bets 2/3 pot on a flop we miss we can fold, we can either bluffraise putting our entire (or at least a huge chunk of our) stack "blind"- ie we have no idea how likely he is to fold-or we can float, but again we dont know how much he barrells and we only have ~ a pot sized bet behind

Similarly if we flop a pair and we raise its unlikely we get it in good. If we call we are again in a spot where we may have a really difficult decision to call off with KT on a Kxxx board or whatever. We can flop big draws, this is prob our best result here (other than miracle flops), but we end up getting it in flipping a lot.

I think with reads you can sometimes call pre, but readless I really think its too difficult to play it profitably

As for betting the turn, I prefer betting to checking because some river cards may scare villain. But usually when someone checks turn here they have a hand that is either giving up or trying to get us to pot commit ourself (I think attempting a c/r bluff will be really rare with those stacks). If he is planning to give up he may bet river, if he is getting it in he will nearly always be pot committed if he bets and we shove river. On balance I think betting turn is best, there may be a few hands c/c one street but not 2, but bet needs to be enough to make it really difficult for villain to fold river

NoseyBonk

The thread title breaks my brain.

BorinLoner

I'm glad that oynutter has mentioned raising the flop. I thought I was the only one...

His pre-flop 3-betting range is surely going to be pairs and two high cards, right? If we call on this flop, can we really expect our opponent to put another chip in with an underpair unless, as here, he outdraws us? I don't think so. I'm sticking my chips in and hoping he calls with AK, AA or KQ and if he doesn't then I'm assuming I haven't lost any value.

As usual, I agree with everything EvilPingu has said but I'm not getting involved with the grantorino v KAM99 debate.

mickgil75

                     Good old sky player just could,nt fol his pocket 8s.

                       same old same old.lol