playing 2p/4p try beat this level how i play this and is it a call on river was going to fold

IDONKCALLU

liamm23Small blind £0.02£0.02£5.26IDONKCALLUBig blind £0.04£0.06£3.92BigBlindTBig blind £0.04£0.10£0.96 Your hole cards109   WilhelmFold    justin24Fold    jeanrbCall £0.04£0.14£3.73JiloRaise £0.16£0.30£5.10ClumsyBetCall £0.16£0.46£5.15leetillsFold    BigBlindTFold    TOD19Fold    liamm23Call £0.14£0.60£5.12IDONKCALLUCall £0.12£0.72£3.80jeanrbCall £0.12£0.84£3.61Flop  910Q   liamm23Check    IDONKCALLUCheck    jeanrbCheck    JiloBet £0.20£1.04£4.90ClumsyBetRaise £0.40£1.44£4.75liamm23Fold    IDONKCALLUCall £0.40£1.84£3.40jeanrbFold    JiloCall £0.20£2.04£4.70Turn  4   IDONKCALLUBet £1.12£3.16£2.28JiloFold    ClumsyBetCall £1.12£4.28£3.63River  A   IDONKCALLUCheck    ClumsyBetAll-in £3.63£7.91£0.00IDONKCALLUAll-in £2.28£10.19£0.00ClumsyBetUnmatched bet £1.35£8.84£1.35IDONKCALLUShow109  <td class="hhamt" style="padding-top:7px;padding-right:5px;padding-bottom:7px;padding-left:5px;color:#666666;vertical-align:middle;font-family:verdana;text-align:right !important;font-size:0.9em;border-width:1

Dudeskin8

Fold pre for me.

After getting super lucky and flopping the nuts for your hand pre I'd want to get most if not all in on flop so check then after raise and min3bet make it a chunky £1.50+ and don't fold.

If they managd to somehow station flop shove pretty much all turns, a blank 4 being a very nice card for you to do so. 

As played you weirdly donk half pot on turn after passive play on flop which allows him to just call instead of betting again, I prefer CRAI here.

River not great as could make better 2pairs but I canny be folding now so would shovle it in myself for times they can't fold QJ/KQ. Still overall got to say you played it in a real bizarre way that certainly meant you could have lost value. 

KAM99

In part agree with Dudeskin above, though I don't see a particular reason to fold a hand like this preflop, and certainly not in a cash game. I hate being to nitty in cash games as it makes your play obvious, and so playing suited connectors or one gappers is acceptable and often more profitable than big PP's or AK etc, long as played correctly post flop. You were already on the BB with some money in the pot, so I don't think completing is bad with 3 already in the pot, and four if jeanrb calls the raise, which he does. Family pots often where suited connectors can work best if they flop big.

Post flop I agree with Dude in that I wouldn't play it like this. Its not a dry board, and while it could be worse with a flush draw, its still got cards that will be in or around a lot of the people in the pots range, which means you want to thin this field drastically from 4. So you need to either lead out yourself, or as with your check stick in a 4bet. If that means you win it here thats great, and beats calling and getting stacked when someone out draws you. As played, turn bet is pointless. You put in half pot leaving yourself only £2 behind. Stick it all in, as you got what might likely be the best hand, and if not you have the flush redraw. Make them pay to draw, or take the hand down here. YOu want other people making the hard choices on calling or not, and because of the way you played it you ended up having to make that hard choice yourself on the river, where you nearly folded.

Dudeskin8

@ - KAM99 - At the higher levels playing suited conns is certainly a fine play to 'balance' but at NL4 it's all about going for value and with the ability of players at this level there is just no need to 'mix up your play' as no one is paying attention.

rancid

fold pre - not intrested in the rest

playing 109hh from the blinds in a multi way pot is not going to beat NL4

The fact that in your in this spot on the river shows what a silly spot your in

don't bluff and don't play marginals - especially oop

Each time you play a hand at NL4 you should be very comfortable and gettig value should be easy, seriously if it's not then your doing something very wroung

grantorino

@dude and rancid, just because he doesnt have to play T9s to win at 4NL doesnt mean he shouldnt. I am open to arguments as to whether calling or folding is better, but the "oh just wait for big hands " isnt a good one. The question is whether playing T9s here is profitable or not. I'm inclined to think it would be but I may be wrong, prob depends how bad other players are and how good hero plays postflop

DietChips

Personally, in this position I wouldn't play the hand however if I was on the button then it would be a different story. Also, many people say that if you're going to enter a hand then it's best to enter with a raise but if this was just a bit of play for variance then I don't see a problem.

If I was ClumsyBet, I would have put you on a low pocket pair or a pair of 10s from your play. In the end I think you just got lucky.

As for what others have said regarding T9s being profitable, I tend to see it as a hand that you would raise a little every now and again and hope for a flush draw.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: playing 2p/4p try beat this level how i play this and is it a call on river was going to fold:

@dude and rancid, just because he doesnt have to play T9s to win at 4NL doesnt mean he shouldnt. I am open to arguments as to whether calling or folding is better, but the "oh just wait for big hands " isnt a good one. The question is whether playing T9s here is profitable or not. I'm inclined to think it would be but I may be wrong, prob depends how bad other players are and how good hero plays postflop
Posted by grantorino

Why are you playing it though, to flop 2pair/trips? If so that is clearly a pretty bad play as you don't flop often enough IMO to make it profitable ad even when you do oppo might not pay you off.

Also a reason to play these type of hands is to play any draws post flop aggressively I.E. semi-bluffing, but at NL4 you usually have close to zero FE therefore rely on hitting draw which again doesn't hit the majority of the time. 

You could say implied odds are high against bad players but for me it's still not going to be as profitable as playing big hands where you know where you are from the flop and then just bet for value rather than adding loads of variables that might not come off. 

rancid

In Response to Re: playing 2p/4p try beat this level how i play this and is it a call on river was going to fold:

@dude and rancid, just because he doesnt have to play T9s to win at 4NL doesnt mean he shouldnt. I am open to arguments as to whether calling or folding is better, but the "oh just wait for big hands " isnt a good one. The question is whether playing T9s here is profitable or not. I'm inclined to think it would be but I may be wrong, prob depends how bad other players are and how good hero plays postflop
Posted by grantorino

We are not just waiting for big hands, we want better spots
Is calling here w/109hh profitible long term, don't honestly know if it's +ev or not
Probabilty of hitting our hand be it 2pr/sd/fd, then you have to factor in reverse implied odds and direct and implied odds
More of a math question for 2+2 me thinks )

I would hazzard a guess and say it can be a bit spewy espcially at a level where you may find yourself in multi way raised or limped pots a lot and overtime if you carry on playing pretty hands that don't improve the majority of the time then surely this just becomes passive spew oop

Does raise an intresting matter though regarding when is it ok to limp along or call raises with implied hands

Saying that I can't see effective stack size, looks like hero is calling 3% of a 100bb effective stack - is this good ?
If we stay on the 5/10 rule then I don't think we have favaourable aspects to continue but hey - I could be wroung



If hero is calling less than <5% of effective stack here, it may ok but with this many in a multi way pot - reverse implied odds and being oop imo make this is a fold - but it's a close one GT )

EvilPingu

I don't think the call is terrible - I probably fold pre OOP, but if you're going to play speculative hands @ 4NL, you can do far worse than play a suited connector 5 handed. Whether it's right or not, idk.

If I played the hand, I'd lead out and look to get my stack in on the flop. The board is so, so wet that I'm never, EVER checking and possibly giving a free card to 4 people. I'd probably lead out with an overbet, somewhere between pot and 1.25x pot, so about £1, and I'm not folding.

As played, just go all in on the flop.

IDONKCALLU

i know u say 2p/4p play play abc supertight and play premiums sure these players counterfit this know that u are not playing a hand for half an hour and can put u on such a narrow range ak kk qq jj etc so if it comes a low flop and they put us on this range and they know we have high pair and they have 2 pair etc or str8 then these players would get paid of right ?

EvilPingu

In Response to Re: playing 2p/4p try beat this level how i play this and is it a call on river was going to fold:

i know u say 2p/4p play play abc supertight and play premiums sure these players counterfit this know that u are not playing a hand for half an hour and can put u on such a narrow range ak kk qq jj etc so if it comes a low flop and they put us on this range and they know we have high pair and they have 2 pair etc or str8 then these players would get paid of right ?
Posted by IDONKCALLU

No, the thought process of a 4NL player is "I have a pair draw, callcallcallcallcall!"

Don't complicate things. Play big hands strongly, they won't even notice what you're doing.

Dudeskin8

In Response to Re: playing 2p/4p try beat this level how i play this and is it a call on river was going to fold:

i know u say 2p/4p play play abc supertight and play premiums sure these players counterfit this know that u are not playing a hand for half an hour and can put u on such a narrow range ak kk qq jj etc so if it comes a low flop and they put us on this range and they know we have high pair and they have 2 pair etc or str8 then these players would get paid of right ?
Posted by IDONKCALLU

All they know is they're playing da pokerz and want to have some fun, it doesn't go any further than that

YOUNG_GUN

I call pre fwiw. bunch of nitbags!

109suited in amultiway pot is awesome, can get stacks if you flop big getting good price really as long as you dont overplay it postflop call is fine

IDONKCALLU

lol yg

rancid

In Response to Re: playing 2p/4p try beat this level how i play this and is it a call on river was going to fold:

I call pre fwiw. bunch of nitbags! 109suited in amultiway pot is awesome, can get stacks if you flop big getting good price really as long as you dont overplay it postflop call is fine
Posted by YOUNG_GUN

Poker is full of if's, but's and maybe's )

You gotta remember that you only get paid if oppo flops/draws well but not better than you otherwise you end up with river descions where maybe oppo has a better 2 pair )

But seriously.......it's NL4 - if you can play poker you should beat it

Spad3s

Fold preflop

TINTIN

i call pre, pot the flop, ship the turn.

as played its a bit of a mess

KAM99

In Response to Re: playing 2p/4p try beat this level how i play this and is it a call on river was going to fold:

i know u say 2p/4p play play abc supertight and play premiums sure these players counterfit this know that u are not playing a hand for half an hour and can put u on such a narrow range ak kk qq jj etc so if it comes a low flop and they put us on this range and they know we have high pair and they have 2 pair etc or str8 then these players would get paid of right ?
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Nah, most of the low stake players are so just starting they barely have an idea of their own hand strengths or what hand wins. Hand yesterday there was a raise UTG, I 3bet with QQ and got a call from player to my left, and the UTG folded. Flop comes two low cards and a ten, I fire, and get called, turn again low with no straight or flush, i fire and get called. River is a six and I fire again... They call and turn over 26os to win with two pair. They called two streets with bottom pair and lucked the river. This is the standard, that some of them will call with any pair at all right to the river. They don't think at all about what you have in a lot of cases. Oh and this was at 10/20, so its not just 2/4 etc.

grantorino

Yeah I think its pretty close either way.

All villains fullstacked
Should be good implied odds v bad players
We flop a made hand around 5%( Ithink), which means we need to win about £1.80 more postflop if we only continue with made hands. Think thats near enough possible multiway
They also will do stupid things like bad betsizing and pay us off when we obv made our draw, so we can continue with draws lots

These are the good points, stuff like rio and other points dudeskin and rancid make work against it.

Just hate all this "you dont have to play it" stuff. Obv you can beat 4NL folding lots of non premium hands, but if they are profitable to play you should play them. Again like I said above I wouldnt be sure this spot is profitable

Also rancid said "Each time you play a hand at NL4 you should be very comfortable and gettig value should be easy, seriously if it's not then your doing something very wroung". While I get what you are saying if this is true you are probably missing value

No one mentioned it above but I wouldnt be superexcited about getting it in on that flop (and yes I know this adds to the reasons to fold pre). IDCU calling flop to lead blank turn makes no sense imo

rancid

In Response to Re: playing 2p/4p try beat this level how i play this and is it a call on river was going to fold:

Yeah I think its pretty close either way. All villains fullstacked Should be good implied odds v bad players We flop a made hand around 5%( Ithink), which means we need to win about £1.80 more postflop if we only continue with made hands. Think thats near enough possible multiway They also will do stupid things like bad betsizing and pay us off when we obv made our draw, so we can continue with draws lots These are the good points, stuff like rio and other points dudeskin and rancid make work against it. Just hate all this "you dont have to play it" stuff. Obv you can beat 4NL folding lots of non premium hands, but if they are profitable to play you should play them. Again like I said above I wouldnt be sure this spot is profitable Also rancid said " Each time you play a hand at NL4 you should be very comfortable and gettig value should be easy, seriously if it's not then your doing something very wroung". While I get what you are saying if this is true you are probably missing value No one mentioned it above but I wouldnt be superexcited about getting it in on that flop (and yes I know this adds to the reasons to fold pre). IDCU calling flop to lead blank turn makes no sense imo
Posted by grantorino

You can play a wider range at nl4 than just premiums and still make it work but by playing hole cards that draw to higher end flushes and straights (nutz/2nd nutz) or even TPGK/top 2 prs
While people have this opnion nl4 players just play ATC, this is not true - many play any two suited, any paint, any Ax plus any cards the look slighty connected
Add in that you will see lots of raised or limped multi way pots, we want to be drawing very well here in these situations

The key for me is the fact that it's 4-5 way pots

The funny thing about NL4 is you can see flops cheap, doesn't mean you should do it with all your sc's