Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!

unknown_username

Hi folks,

Did anyone see PokerstarsTthe Big Game last night about midnight on channel 5?

They have professionals and one 'loose cannon' that can win a sponsored seat into a series of events as well as keeping their profit.
Anyway the cannon< David Fishman, is up against Phil Helmuth and catches a ten on the river beating Phil's two pair. Phil raises and Fishman's goes all-in after much bad acting etc. Did anyone else feel that it seemed a little too obvious what he had and that it was a terrible call. It just seemed to me that Phil isn't as good in these cash games as tournaments and seems to get extra relish from making 'wunderbar' calls that it clouds his judgement. Don't get me wrong i love watching Phil but do feel that better players can find reads on him or set him to make poor decisions. Your thoughts?..........

Mind this is coming from a player whose MTT graph looks  like a downhill ski slope at the the moment!......cheers

PS If you haven't the progs are on youtube too. Maybe someone with better computer abilities than myself can put the link up for others to see. In fact, could someone tell me how to do it.

Lambert180

Yeah I watch it all the time when I remember that it's on. And yeah it's a well known fact that Helmuth is general one of the worst cash players on the table every time he's  on it. I don't think he's as terrible at cash as people make out but he certainly doesn't match up to some of the other players. I'm in the camp of people who actually quite like Helmuth by the way, and feel a bit harsh for the solid abuse he gets.

Good fun to watch though.

simonnatur

When he's not making superbad calls, he does run hilariously badly in these tv games..

My fav was when he flopped trips against a loose cannons KK, he agreed to let the LC run it 4 times i think - just to give the amateur a small chance to stay in the game.

To the delight of the rest of the pro's the LC went on to win 3/4 runs

Too bad if they dont make more of these, was a good format.

IDONKCALLU

yeah was sooooooooooooooooooooo obv he had the nuts a big online tell this was oscars speech fake shaking was obvious lol   after he folded aa and kk i know he got the passport but cmon folding aces and kings in cash game win more moniez is just bonkers 

rancid

It's an obvious donate to the amatuer imo

Helmouth is a terrible cash players because he is ego driven 100%
But you can't deny he a legend of a poker player, just look at his last wsop results.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!:

yeah was sooooooooooooooooooooo obv he had the nuts a big online tell this was oscars speech fake shaking was obvious lol   after he folded aa and kk i know he got the passport but cmon folding aces and kings in cash game win more moniez is just bonkers 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

Yes i know BUT, and its a big BUT, he would have gome up against quads 6's and not realised. He also let go of his fav hand JQs and would have flopped a flush but i don't blame him too much. Give yourself a goal and accept once you've achieved it.......good fun though, eh? 

IDONKCALLU

yeah was good fun i seen the later shows on youtube 2011 1 with hellmuth vs tony g that was good tv class i post link up here profman worth a watch m8 tell me what u think if this is bad eddicate or not made me laugh tho 

JSTFLIPPIN

Yeah he doesn't really beat much tbh

NoseyBonk

In Response to Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!:

Hi folks, Did anyone see PokerstarsTthe Big Game last night about midnight on channel 5?
Posted by profman15

Record it every week but not seen this one yet. Perkins has been quite entertaining in the recent shows.

TommyD

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!:

yeah was sooooooooooooooooooooo obv he had the nuts a big online tell this was oscars speech fake shaking was obvious lol   after he folded aa and kk i know he got the passport but cmon folding aces and kings in cash game win more moniez is just bonkers 
Posted by IDONKCALLU

He had about 3 or 4 year's salary in profit under his nose.  In other words he had immense security for his family in front of him.  If I had those levels of responsibilities I would muck the world as well.  I respect him for doing so, in my opinion it takes a bigger man to sacrifice his own enjoyment or greed in favour of what is truly important.

As for PH's call, it's a pretty gross spot TBH.  PH really doesn't like being bluffed on TV (a lot of the pros are like this) and PH correctly had him on clubs.  Now he's only losing to one club hand, the KQ which he had.  The question is does he ever jam all busted draws on the river as well?  I'll leave that to better players than me to debate.

IDONKCALLU

i think hellmuths ego got the better of him i mean come on its hard to fold 2 pair against any of the pros on the table perkins or williams  i would call here but a loose cannon is he really ever bluffing in this spot mmmmm i very much doubt it 

Lambert180

Well said Tommy. I didn't see the show myself, but if I had that kinda money tied up for basically a freeroll, I'd be folding my way to a nice payday too

jackda

Watched this episode a while ago and thought at the time couldnt he of just turned his hand over and shoved with the aces?Was quite a bit of money in the pot and Laak wouldnt of called obv.

Lambert180

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!:

Watched this episode a while ago and thought at the time couldnt he of just turned his hand over and shoved with the aces?Was quite a bit of money in the pot and Laak wouldnt of called obv.
Posted by jackda

I didn't see the show, was it folded pre-flop? Cos if so, pre-flop on the big game it's pot limit, so doubt he'd have been able to shove.

IDONKCALLU

yeah its pot limit preflop and no limit on flop so he couldnt of shoved flop was 6 k 6 laak had quad 6s so cannon turned out saved alot of money but 2 hands later he had kk and he folded kk david williams had a q flop was q 7 2 rainbow i believe so cannon would of won a big pot there  

scotty77

I personally think shows like this are pretty pointless and wouldn't even discuss the hands in them.

Just treat is as poker entertainment.  There is so much going on in them that mean the hands are so far removed from the typical live/online game that there is very very little to be gained by actually thinking about the hands.

+1 to TommyD tho.  in that situation you lock up.  not just standard lock up I mean total and utter don't play a single hand lock up./

jackda

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!:

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!! : I didn't see the show, was it folded pre-flop? Cos if so, pre-flop on the big game it's pot limit, so doubt he'd have been able to shove.
Posted by Lambert180

yeah forgot that but if he reraised pot and showed laak still would of folded i think

iLoveToast

In Response to Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!:

Hi folks, Did anyone see PokerstarsTthe Big Game last night about midnight on channel 5? They have professionals and one 'loose cannon' that can win a sponsored seat into a series of events as well as keeping their profit. Anyway the cannon< David Fishman, is up against Phil Helmuth and catches a ten on the river beating Phil's two pair. Phil raises and Fishman's goes all-in after much bad acting etc. Did anyone else feel that it seemed a little too obvious what he had and that it was a terrible call. It just seemed to me that Phil isn't as good in these cash games as tournaments and seems to get extra relish from making 'wunderbar' calls that it clouds his judgement. Don't get me wrong i love watching Phil but do feel that better players can find reads on him or set him to make poor decisions. Your thoughts?.......... Mind this is coming from a player whose MTT graph looks  like a downhill ski slope at the the moment!......cheers PS If you haven't the progs are on youtube too. Maybe someone with better computer abilities than myself can put the link up for others to see. In fact, could someone tell me how to do it.
Posted by profman15

Anyone who thinks Phil made a bad call here is probs not thinking about it very much. Phil bets the flop, loose cannon calls. Turn gives Phil 2 pair, bets again, cannon calls. River offsuit T. Phil bets and gets shoved on. First of all, does the cannon play this way with worse 2pairs than Phil? Possibly but unlikely. which leaves bluffs (missed flush draws), sets (unlikely given way hand played out, as I cant see the cannon flatting turn against phil with a set) and KQ (unlikely that he calls turn with a bare gutshot draw). So assuming he calls with like the top 25% of suited hands (clubs), he has like 40-45 combos of missed flush draws, and only 1 combo of KQ (KQ of clubs as he is never calling flop and turn with just KQ). Phil bet like 27k otr, and had to call like 70k more once the cannon shoved. So Phil only has to be right here roughly 28% of the time to break even. I call here 100%.

unknown_username

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!:

In Response to Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!! : Anyone who thinks Phil made a bad call here is probs not thinking about it very much. Phil bets the flop, loose cannon calls. Turn gives Phil 2 pair, bets again, cannon calls. River offsuit T. Phil bets and gets shoved on. First of all, does the cannon play this way with worse 2pairs than Phil? Possibly but unlikely. which leaves bluffs (missed flush draws), sets (unlikely given way hand played out, as I cant see the cannon flatting turn against phil with a set) and KQ (unlikely that he calls turn with a bare gutshot draw). So assuming he calls with like the top 25% of suited hands (clubs), he has like 40-45 combos of missed flush draws, and only 1 combo of KQ (KQ of clubs as he is never calling flop and turn with just KQ). Phil bet like 27k otr, and had to call like 70k more once the cannon shoved. So Phil only has to be right here roughly 28% of the time to break even. I call here 100%.
Posted by iLoveToast

All i'm saying is that the loose cannon's behaviour seemed to suggest what we could actually see ie that he had the nuts. Take into account that he's a maths teacher whose top win to date was $425 and you want him to put it on the line with less than a very strong hand?  Yet he's talking up his aggression ("i'm not going to let you do that to me again Phil") to Phil who has a habit of making bad callsin tv cash games and, i feel, that it was a strategy that Phil should have seen through. Even i could see what he'd be trying to appear to have. ie KQc looking back at the betting. It was hardly a wonderful read a la Negreanau. You think he'd put his chances on the line with a bluff or pair....i doubt that very much. He's an amateur with a life in the real world and bills to pay. You could see that where he got both AA's and KK's and put them down, to my mind quite rightly. He couldn't afford to gamble and that showed it perfectly!! Its nice to stand outside the box and give a percentage but this is live cash poker where tell's have more importance. I think he should have seen it...and i stll do.

iLoveToast

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!:

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!! : All i'm saying is that the loose cannon's behaviour seemed to suggest what we could actually see ie that he had the nuts. Take into account that he's a maths teacher whose top win to date was $425 and you want him to put it on the line with less than a very strong hand?  Yet he's talking up his aggression ("i'm not going to let you do that to me again Phil") to Phil who has a habit of making bad callsin tv cash games and, i feel, that it was a strategy that Phil should have seen through. Even i could see what he'd be trying to appear to have. ie KQc looking back at the betting. It was hardly a wonderful read a la Negreanau. You think he'd put his chances on the line with a bluff or pair....i doubt that very much. He's an amateur with a life in the real world and bills to pay. You could see that where he got both AA's and KK's and put them down, to my mind quite rightly. He couldn't afford to gamble and that showed it perfectly!! Its nice to stand outside the box and give a percentage but this is live cash poker where tell's have more importance. I think he should have seen it...and i stll do.
Posted by profman15

Yea but all of that happenend after this hand took place. He wasnt up a great deal before this hand, like 30k. And i dont think PH has enough information on the guy to correctly deduce the fact that he has no bluffs in his range. Maths dont lie, and PH was losing to pretty much 1 combo of KQ. If PH thinks the guy is playing tight to protect any winnings then that means he knows he doesnt call a 2/3 pot bet on the turn with a gutshot. Think about it like this, his range is completely polarized between air and KQcc. which makes this a pretty standard +ev call. In a vaccuum, PH could have folded and lost minimum, but in the long run, this is a -ev play in that spot.

rancid

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!!:

In Response to Re: Forget BUMHUNTING now folks(no offence)...let's talk poker!!! : Yea but all of that happenend after this hand took place. He wasnt up a great deal before this hand, like 30k. And i dont think PH has enough information on the guy to correctly deduce the fact that he has no bluffs in his range. Maths dont lie, and PH was losing to pretty much 1 combo of KQ. If PH thinks the guy is playing tight to protect any winnings then that means he knows he doesnt call a 2/3 pot bet on the turn with a gutshot. Think about it like this, his range is completely polarized between air and KQcc. which makes this a pretty standard +ev call. In a vaccuum, PH could have folded and lost minimum, but in the long run, this is a -ev play in that spot.
Posted by iLoveToast

I agree, but still think he donates knowing he is beaten but simply can't fold because of the reasons you state above
I watch these shows and it is pure entertainment, no one wants to be bluffed on TV espcially by an amatuer )
Phil knows the amatuer is never ever shoving this spot with worse, he just has to call !

I think everyone would lock up in this spot, tbh I wouldn't even look at my cards - well I actually just stand